Hyrule Adventures 2

Well, it seems that for the majority of people, there was a sudden burst of IRL activity some time in the last few months -- strangely enough, it seemed to happen to a number of us at roughly the same time. Most of us had to stop posting temporarily in order to take care of those matters, and when we returned we found HA2 a barren wasteland. Truly a shame, but at least we're all here now.

That said, there is a subject that's come up a number of times during the months of inactivity. Actually, it's come up ever since April of last year . . . I'm sure that date alone is enough to clue many of you into what I'm going to be talking about this time: HA3.

I still remember 2010's March 31, and then early day April 1 -- several times in that time frame, I racked my brain trying to think up a good prank to play on everyone. It hit me probably around noon of April Fools' Day, and in a few hours I had presented it to a laughing Tayro, written something, gotten it approved by a still laughing Tayro, and sent out to the masses. It was really easy, mainly due to the many lighthearted-yet-still-insightful conversations the moderators have had over the years on the subject. We've always known HA2 had some fundamental flaws, and have discussed HA3 as a way of saying "It'd be so awesome if we could do ___, or have ___ functionality, or implement ___ idea". Most of the material in that email originated from those discussions; that probably is what helped to sell the idea to some of you as you were reading it.

(If you have not seen the email, it was reposted here for discussion purposes. Please read it before commenting or voting in the poll)

Dang, I wish I could've seen some of your faces when you read that PS . . . XD;

I will be perfectly honest with you all: I never expected the kind of response we got from the April Fools' email. Once it was sent off, I thought that was probably the end of it as far as you guys were concerned (no doubt we mods would continue talking about it on and off, as we always have). But you all proved me wrong -- for several weeks afterwards, some of you were PMing me or chatting in the HA2 Talk Forums about the subject. Also to my surprise, pretty much everyone spoke of it positively . . . a fact which I don't think was due to HA2's declining status. That's not the impression I got with it, anyway.

But I haven't heard many of you talk about it lately, and so I figure this as good a place as any to ask. Has the novelty of the idea worn off? Does it still sound like something worthwhile? Or is it the stupidest thing you've ever heard of (be honest, please!)?

. . . Perhaps most important of all, would you be willing to leave HA2 and TDC behind for it?

My face was sort of like -.- when I first read the email in April.

Still not the biggest fan of this idea.

My reasons:

1. I don't want to ditch Arrika, or Seth, or Rhyss, or any of the characters I've been developing for over 3 years. Call me sentimental, but they mean something to me now, especially since I've finally gotten enough experience to write about them in a way that doesn't make you cringe. Yes, I'm sure I could rack my brain and attempt to make a completely new character for HA3... but it would probably end up being another thief, because that's what I do. I appreciate the separate forum that would be on HA3 that you suggested where we could use our HA2 characters, but that doesn’t seem very much at all to me.

2. (This was my reaction to reading the forums): Creating HA3 in an attempt to bring in some new blood won't work very well. I realize there are flaws in HA2, and I can understand why that would make you want to create HA3. But I disagree with the part about bringing new people in... because honestly... it's very unlikely to happen at all, no matter how much publicity you bring in if we had our own website. Nintendo's going downhill and the only people willing to do anything Zelda related are the few kids who have only just heard of it through Skyward Sword, or us. "Old" fans. The new kids aren't going to be looking for an RP experience, and they probably don't even know what RP means. The majority of new kids will be male, as Zelda fans have always been, which already cuts down your chances of bringing in new RPers, since (as Alias on the Forums pointed out) most RPers are girls with a taste for Mary-Sues and slash. Here's another thing: We're all getting older, and pretty soon we're probably going to outgrow this. I'm thinking realistically about me and Saki when I say that, but I'm sure this idea could be applied to the rest of you. Me and Saki are going to go off to college next year, and at the moment I have no idea how busy we're going to be. Then we're going to get jobs, and once again, I don't know how much free time I'll have, or if I’ll still be a fan of the series enough to write about it. I know my interest in Zelda has severely declined over the years, and I’ve come to see HA2 as its own place, and hardly related to the video games at all. So one by one our little HA2 family is going to disappear, and there won't be enough new kids to keep the population stable.

3. I don’t think people will post often enough in the HA3 plotline and it’ll end up painfully stagnant. As Saki brought up on the forums, there are what… 7 of us left? It’ll start off with plenty of momentum, everyone excited for the new forum and all, but sooner rather than later that excitement’s going to die away.

Conclusion: HA3 may prove to be a rather fruitless endeavor.

Why I support HA3:

1. …well, it’s new and all, and after writing on the same site for 3 years, maybe a change of scenery and being forced to create an entirely new character would do me some good.
2. I like the idea of an organized plot, although I never had any problem with the everything-goes atmosphere of HA2.
3. Revising stat battles would be nice. Although, being a thief and generally underpowered (and also participating in maybe 3? whole stat battles in the last 3 years), I was never concerned by the issue.

Conclusion: …well, it’s new and all, so that’s enough to catch my interest.

I would support HA3 more if:

1. I could use my HA2 characters.
2. Its description didn’t sound so… restrictive. Maybe it’s just me.

Questions:

1. Would HA2 and HA3 be connected in the same universe? As in, would HA2 be considered “history”, and could you reference events that happened in that world? (This, of course, would be more relevant if I’m allowed to use Arrika/Seth/etc again).

ENDNOTE: I’m being realistic, not pessimistic, and if you all want to go ahead and create HA3 I’m not going to make a big deal about it, and I’ll RP there with the rest of you. On the whole though, I’m not crazy about the idea, especially since it’s going to take a lot of work to set up and may not result in anything substantial.

I would be fine with making HA3 just to split from TDC and be an independent site... if we didn't make it too unlike HA2.

Sooner or later, I knew we'd have to address the elephant in the room. And not that fun elephant either, the awkward one, the one that really brings up a lot of thought and emotions. It would be so simple to just ignore this, but it's been ignored long enough.

The Desert Colossus is dying.

There are a handful of possible reasons for this, and I intend to list the largest ones, so bare with me. Yet, first I'd like to address something, to those of you who are unaware, which are probably a very small percentage of you, if any, HA2 is not its own site, but rather a sub-site within a Legend of Zelda information site known as The Desert Colossus. But, after Jack, the original designer of TDC and HA2 disappeared, information fell into disarray, and HA2 was left leaderless. Eventually, Jack returned, and bid TDC farewell for good, as he had grown of age where he had to pursue real life obligations in such a way that he could not longer serve as an admin for TDC or HA2. Kamikaze Plumber was placed in charge, and fortunately soon got to work at updating TDC with Twilight Princess data. It must have been a very daunting task. Thus, as TDC became his focus, HA2 again fell into the wayside.

Much later, Alpha managed to secure adminship on HA2, and only HA2. This at least allowed for a more active leader, and Alpha still holds this position well. The flaw it would appear is that TDC has fallen into severe disarray. Here is why.

1) Kamikaze Plumber has disappeared, or at least as a participant on HA2, I know I've been unable to contact him. Thus, updates on HA2 have become highly sporadic.

2) Even the Twilight Princess data never finished being updated. Plus all the interesting fun facts in Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks.

3) Despite the moderators' loyalty to the site, they don't have enough reserved powers to make active and effective updates.

4) Zelda appears to be marketing more and more towards a younger audience, and most youths really don't take the time to get actively involved in a fan site.

Overall, even if Skyward Sword is a huge success, which I have my doubts about, but I'll stay open minded, unless more power is given to moderators to keep the site fully up to date, or a new admin is appointed, not that KP should be banned or anything, TDC will more than likely fall. As unfortunate as that is, it's looking to be true.

Because HA2 is a sub-site, we can only really be active so long as TDC is. Thus, if TDC does die, than HA2 will eventually fall as well.

On another note, there really isn't a whole lot of advertisement for this epic place even on the TDC site. We're just seen in a handful of links. If TDC pointed us out more often, I think we'd have the potential to grow a bit. Also, HA2 isn't its own site, so we can't take advertising ourselves throughout the rest of the internet into our own hands. One of our players a while back, I want to think it was Kasei, was brilliant enough to put a page up for us on Zelda Wiki, but how many people is that really going to attract. We just to to advertise better, but to do that, we would more than likely need our own site.

This is something that Hyrule Adventures 3 intends to address, if I'm correct. From what I heard, it would be its own site, so advertising would be easier, and we wouldn't be dependent on a host site for our survival, not that I'm saying TDC should die, because I love that site to death.

Hyrule Adventures 3 also brought up a lot of interesting ideas, including the idea of a larger explorable map, which I'm all for. Also, the concept about adventures being associated with evil seemed pretty interesting, and it gave a lot of story and premise behind the creation of any characters in that time period. Yet, as Arrika stated, I'm a little vein. I created a fairly large cast for HA2, and there was a lot of plot I was going to cover. Even if I did finish my own expedition I tried a few years ago, as well as all of my story arcs in a future date from the starting point I'm still working on, I'd say I hadn't even covered a sixth of my grand plot line I had planned within HA2, not that anybody really ever understood my story, but that's because I had planned for more and more insight to be released as the story continued, something it appears it won't at this rate.

Either way, I think I'd like to continue HA2's saga, not only to continue my own story, but to partake in others as well. First off, the Southern Crusade topics were some of the best topics I was ever a part of. I'd be very happy to continue that, and eventually, in the right time, not rushed, see how it concludes. Secondly, Kasei's war, which has been at a standstill for some time. Those participating really should get back to it. I could go on all day with story lines that seemed pretty genius that I'd like to see continue, but I believe this point has been made and enough examples given.

Thus, even if we did launch HA3, my vote would be to keep HA2 around at the same time, to allow the collective story that chance to continue and flourish, and when the time comes, come to a noble end.

Now, should HA3 be launched, I like the idea of starting from scratch with characters, yet at the same time, I know people who might be a little hesitant to role with it. Perhaps this can be avoided by stating that your main character can't be one you've already introduced in HA2, or just by a strong discouraging statement against recycling characters. But I don't think that every character introduced into HA2 so far would have died as a result of the explanation offered by Alpha, if not even all the heroes who were present at that final battle.

In conclusion:

1) I think TDC can be saved, and in turn HA2, but it will require giving the moderators more power on TDC's part, and a large advertising push on HA2's.

2) I really like the idea of HA3, it's really unique, but I think its a little early to set in stone concepts like the character limitations.

3) I don't think HA2 has run its course, not even close. And I would like to see it continue as long as possible. But, for whatever reason, if the overall survival of the HA series depended on adopting HA3's system and completely abandoning HA2, then that is where my loyalties would lie.

I hope this states my thoughts clearly, and perhaps enlighten others as well, if they weren't aware of the facts in the first place.

PS: I felt like I wanted to say more, but I'm not sure what.

I'm all for it. We could do so much more than we can do here if we had our own site. We could fix everything that was wrong, improve what was right, add a plethora of new classes, equipment, shops... Heck, we'd even be able to make new quests now and then! We can't do that here because of... Well, it's a problem that leaving TDC would certainly solve. What you all need to understand is that we could bring the world of Hyrule to life if we left TDC. I can understand why you're all hesitant to leave your characters and stories behind. It hurts us all. I know I really don't want to leave Dogura, Darkin, or the light-hearted Zora behind... But it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make if we decide to get to working on this.

Maybe we can reason that characters could carry over. I don't think it'd be too big of a deal- it's negotiable. As for stories though, there's something you all need to understand. This is gonna be hard to hear, and harder to say... Your story taking off, and getting continued activity to the very end is very rare. Your chances of finishing anything with this many users is minimal. That's right- I never expected Gossip Isle to get past six pages. It's really a miracle that it's gotten so far- and even then, it went through a small period of inactivity. If we left TDC and hit the ground as it's own website, we could make things amazing. Do you know how many hits ZU gets every day? I'm pretty sure they've advertised for us before, I'm almost positive they wouldn't mind doing it for us again- but as a brand new site full of potential and opportunity! I actually joined ZU for a short while when the colossus died. A large part of the community RP's in their tiny little forums. If we opened up a world of RP to them, they'd GLADLY transfer over, I'm nearly positive. That's at LEAST 10 new members JUST from ZU. But they wouldn't advertise for HA2 because HA2 is nearly dead.

If we advertised everywhere, and people saw what amazing potential the site has- the first time they realize that an entire world is open to them- you all remember your first time right? When I clicked on the compass and realized that there was so much space, I was hooked. I have a feeling HA3 could be the same if only we try to actually do it. Now imagine the story you've planned, but with never before seen levels of activity. I'm sure you can make the transition with that thought alone. I want to actually take a moment to apologize for what I said earlier about never getting a topic finished. I'm just pessimistic because Dogura's story didn't just stop- it died. I had to gut out all the dungeons I meticulously planned, even scrap all the maps I made. I had to skip to the very end to get it finished, and it's very possible you'd have to do the same to yours. The fact of the matter is, even though there is activity here now, it doesn't change the fact that the site is dead without a Web Master present. If we ever want to keep this idea alive... If we really love HA as it is... I think our very best hope to keep it going is to pack up and leave. I'm saying I think this is actually a good idea, and I'm all for helping out with ideas if the decision is unanimous.

That's what I've got to say. I hope you can all understand, and not be mad at me.

To be honest, not quite sure how to vote. I'm very for HA3, but my primary reason for that is I don't think the folks around here have the power to do the level of rehaul needed to get HA2 more lively again. I have a dozen suggestions, mostly to aesthetic, but I'm not sure they can be carried out, which is a great pity.

I think HA2 has life in it left, but it needs a big clean up. It's difficult to navigate, character archives are two+ links away from the main page, and somebody needs to do an activity check and darn well delete people who have never posted, and whatnot. I /don't/ know what the staff here can do. I've seen little demonstration of admin powers, at least compared to what I think of as normal.

Thus, HA3 would be an ideal option. A guarantee of autonomy. TDC is dying, as somebody pointed out, so either enabling HA2 to be able to...I mean, at the very least moderate their own board, or a new site.

I think disallowing old characters is unreasonable, as it would chase away your 'old supporters' to a degree, and right now... those are pretty much /all/ your members. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen all that many new members post around here. Sometimes I don't wonder if I'm the newest member who's shown any form of effort to breathe life into this site, and I know for a fact I'm not that active at all. I just /haven't/ seen new members.

And sure, as Arrika says, when the old folks eventually move off, this place will dry up faster than a puddle in rattlesnake country. The problem isn't a dwindling fandom - whenever I mention HA2 to people at school, be they in the final year or first, I am met with lit-up eyes - Zelda is revived amongst a new population of fans, with a new population of potential roleplayers, or even current roleplayers who simply don't know you can roleplay Zelda. Your priority should be fostering new members and passing on a legacy, so when you finally grow too old for this site, you'll leave a few more people.

I'm sure it will die, but I'll be damned if this extremely unusual, and particularly unique community of roleplayers fades away before the Zelda game does. It's such a waste. HA2, is in my experience a very very rare species, and to be honest? I like it.

Although it's still really intimidating... ^^;

So, if HA2 can get back on its feet, then let's do this. If it can't? Move the community somewhere new, so it's not lost. Yeah. Just not sure how likely HA2 is at being revived, because making a new site could be a real pain.

Hey guys.

So, yeah, it occurred to me pretty recently that I stopped signing on to AIM a long, long time ago. However, I've always been around and available, you guys should have tried PMing me or emailing me if you needed me. But I can see why you'd think I was totally gone.

Honestly I felt pretty bad about not returning to HA2 this past summer. It was partly because I felt like no one else was around, so topics would just be left stagnant. I still have my own story that I kind of miss, but I also don't have as much time as I used to.

However, I'm always, always available to help as far as webmastering goes. I'm sorry I lost contact with you guys. I recently posted something like this on the TDC forums as well.

I will support any ideas you guys have to advertise HA2 or TDC. I'm also willing to work on anything you guys need/want changed here on TDC. Depending on what that is exactly, I might be able to do it at any time. Remember: my capacity as webmaster is *really* only limited to uploading files to TDC's server. If you guys completely redesign HA2, and then just hand me the files, I could have it up on the server almost immediately. For more intense stuff, there's a good chance I can handle that over the summer.

OK, but, as far as HA3 goes: I'm more for a reboot of HA2 than the full change to HA3. Not only did Jack put a LOT of work into HA2 as it is, I'm convinced it would be very, very hard to set HA2 up on a completely new website/server. The mods and software HA2 uses (which affects things like the Rupee counter, and the ability to add shops and items) are very old, and not compatible with newer forum software. Meanwhile, HA2 already has all the necessary infrastructure, like the map, set up. If you guys want to start over with new rules and a new story and such, that can all be done on HA2 itself, and pretty easily.

But that's just my opinion. I agree with the stuff most of you are saying: HA2 needs more advertisement, or a reboot, or something to breathe life back into it. All of that involves me directly, but it's really more up to you guys to come up with ideas. I won't hold back anything I might think of, but, I'm sure you can collectively come up with better stuff. So, just do it. I'm behind you all 100%, and am ALWAYS AVAILABLE.

Oh, and just a reminder: I am NOT an admin here at HA2, in the sense that Alpha is. My only power over HA2 is in manipulating its files. Otherwise, I'm on the same level as all of you. I have no influence on the main story line, or anything like that, so don't expect that from me. But I won't pretend like I'm not necessary for HA2's survival, you guys just need to contact me when you need my help or input.

Well KP, this is all really good to hear. I agree with you that moving would be really difficult. I don't know if starting over again here at HA2 sounds very... appealing. At least it doesn't to me. If you're honestly back (honest and for truly), then we've got quite a lot to do and discuss.

I'm sure Alpha and you could communicate through PM's, but I'd like an open discussion if at all possible. Like I stated before, we've all got a lot to discuss, and I doubt we'd all be online on AIM at the same time for a group discussion. would a topic in the keep be okay?

edit: If we decided to set up a meeting for an AIM chatroom, I'd be down to sign in at a certain time.

So good to hear you back with encouraging words though.

I feel like I need to give a lengthy, intelligent opinion to this idea... But I probably won't be much of a help, since I'm basically repeating the opinion I held and stated when the idea was first introduced. Anyway...

So I do like the idea of a big plotline. It'll definitely serve as an incentive to keep posting, because then you don't have the whole, "oh my character sucks I have no story blahh I'm done with this." I have no problem with letting go of my characters because I feel like I've squeezed them to a pulp and it'd be fun to get google with another character. I've created a new character just in case we do the whole HA3 thing, so I have no problem in that respect.

I have to second Arrika's comment, though. It does sound restrictive. It might limit creativity, seeing that creating your own story is part of the fun.

But I do like the plot that Alpha made. Very creative, intriguing, and I have absolutely no problem letting that be the major vein of the story.

If creating the site is not a problem - if it's not too much work, then I think we should go for it. :] except... What's going to happen to HA2 when we leave?it'll still be here, right? I am a tad sentimental about this website... Ermmm yeahhh

One last comment. it might be stupid, so please ignore it if it is. Eh hem.If we do have a major storg plot though, there's bound to be 'major characters'. I mean, it's kinda inevitable that there has to be someone leading the whole thing, right? It's no problem for me, of course, but *new* members might be discouraged by the rather... restrictive, um, limited role one has to play in the plot. Like the follower, the one with the sword going, "ok, tell me what I see and what I need to do." uhh I don't know if that made any sense at all... It's past midnight and my brain is goig senile or something.

But anyway. I will definitely join if we are to create HA3! :]

I'm split.

I think HA3 would be really awesome, and I'm kind of excited about making a new character in a new setting with new stuff. However, I've put a lot of work into my HA2 characters and story, almost all of which I have yet to do. I also really really want to finish up the main storyline of HA2, with the crusades and whatnot, because I think that's a lot of fun.

In short, I think we should do HA3, not necessarily immediately, but still keep HA2 around to finish it out.

Heck whenever we start HA3, we can use that itself to advertise HA2. Even once we finish the Crusades and stuff, it'd still be fun to have around just for our characters to use, so we can all start and finish our own characters' stories.

When I posted this one, I knew I'd want to reply to each and every post you guys made. That wouldn't be very conductive to a conversation, though, so I made myself promise that I wouldn't reply until at least five other posts had been made. Apparently that takes longer than I anticipated. Geez, today's the day I was going to be locking this topic and posting a new poll! Oh well, I'll keep it up for now.

So! It looks like, thus far, most people are tentatively in favor of HA3, but have a few reservations about it, especially when it comes to leaving their characters and storylines behind. There also seems to be some concern about the Storyline being too restrictive. Well, allow me to address these three big ones.


Character Restrictions
I believe I've said before that there is a reason why I'm wanting to disallow HA2 characters from use in HA3. And also that I imagine you'd all understand if I went ahead and presented the entirety of the Storyline ideas I've come up with so far.

Unfortunately, I'm a major stickler when it comes to spoilers, so that ain't likely to happen.

However, in light of the completely-expected-yet-still-influential outcry that's been voiced, I am willing to reconsider the whole idea of banning HA2 characters from use in HA3. It would be a challenge, due to HA3-canonical reasons, to allow such a thing, but I'll think about changes that would make room for at least some of HA2 characters to be viable choices for HA3 characters.


The Fate of HA2
I'm pretty sure I've said this one before too, but obviously it's been a while. So let me repeat this:

No matter what we decide, nothing will happen to HA2.

I do not have the kind of power needed to delete HA2 -- that would require access to the server side of TDC, which is something held only by Jack and Victor. Even if I had it, the last thing I would want to do is destroy HA2. I've got over five years of posts here; do you guys really think I would want all that work and those memories to vanish? ((Answer: No. No I do not.))

So yeah. Regardless of whatever we decide, you don't have to worry about this place going anywhere.


Restrictive Storyline
This one, honestly, caught me by surprise, because my purpose behind the story is to make it rather unrestrictive. Perhaps I should explain how my grand vision for the Storyline would work . . .

((Note: this has evolved in the many months since I sent out the April Fools' email, so this might contradict those words in some places))

When I think about the perfect kind of story for an 'official' storyline for an RPG like Hyrule Adventures, there is one series of topics here in HA2 that I think of. A storyline that really did something that I want to replicate for HA3 . . . even though, ultimately, it didn't get very far before collapsing. But if you can recall what it was like when it was first posted, I'm sure you can understand what I mean.

I am referring to Kasei's Hylian War topics.

True, it fell through. Yes, it doesn't look like it will start up again any time soon ((not the least of reasons being that Kasei is currently inactive)). From a perspective focusing on activity, it is far from the optimal role model from a storyline. But in terms of influence, Kasei set the standard. And he set it high.

While it was active, the Hylian War did not define HA2, nor did it consume the place. But it did overshadow every aspect of it. You couldn't find an active topic that didn't make some mention of it. Every character was affected by it, and showed signs of its influence on the land and their lives -- even in topics with had nothing to do with the war itself! And even if the character in question wasn't participating in the war themselves, each RPer realized how much it was affecting Hyrule and, maybe without even realizing it, incorporated it into their characters, posts, and stories.

That is what an overarching storyline should look like.

For HA3, the Storyline would not be some continuous series of topics, springing up one right as soon as another finishes. Between each event of the story arc, there would be time for other topics to start, RPers' stories to begin and, hopefully, flourish. When a Storyline topic began, though, it would become a central focus of HA3 . . . and whatever effects it had on Hyrule would be so consequential that mentions of it would worm their way into every other aspect of the game.

In no way would we discourage personal storylines from entering the mix. All the HA3 storyline would seek to do would be to provide another aspect of the setting for which personal storylines would take place. Something that is rarely seen but constantly felt, overshadowing every topic and character in the game without being a ever present force.

I don't think it's restrictive at all -- your personal storyline would be free to ignore the HA3 Storyline if you wanted. My goal would just be to make a Storyline so compelling that you wouldn't want to ignore it.

Frankly, I think that sounds freakin' awesome.



There were some other possible problems that some of you already countered, for the most part. Thanks for that, guys.

So, I guess all that's left are the points KP brought up. As the webmaster, he's got a unique viewpoint, so I suppose it's no surprise he mentioned a few things others overlooked.

Actually making the website and coding the forums so as to reproduce the vastness of HA2 would, no doubt, be a challenge. I think we've got enough people here who are computer- and coding-savvy that we could recreate the multiple-screen system ((maybe through trial and error, but I for one would be willing to put in the time needed for that)). Same with a website, though there we would have the added problem of actually getting someone to pay for the site. Those items, however, are problems I believe we can solve.

Where mods and software used by HA2 are concerned, those specific ones may no longer work in current forum versions, but I'm certain that replacements are out there. The forums over at Exploding Deku Nut are an example -- they use the same system HA2 runs with, and Darth Citrus has implemented a monetary system and a store for members to use ((oh! And their system actually awards more money the longer your post is, too! How awesome is that! )).

On the matter of simply rebooting HA2 . . . I don't believe that will help us at all, really. It's kind of depressing to think about, but HA2 is intrinsically tied to TDC. As TDC rises, so too will HA2 . . . and as the main site falls, so will the RPG. And to be perfectly frank, TDC has been falling quite a lot lately.

Honestly, there is only one way that HA2 can be saved, and that's if TDC is saved. TDC needs to regain its former state of excellence and glory, be that through updated content, new features, a new layout . . . etc. I don't really know what it would take to turn TDC's fortune around, but I am fairly certain that it requires one thing: a webmaster who can be consistently active and working on the site. It's a heavy responsibility to be placed on any one person's shoulders, I know, but it's gotta be there. And, according to the post you made on the TDC Forums, KP, you are not in a position to be that active right now, nor will you be anytime in the near future.

If TDC cannot be saved, then it doesn't matter how we try to promote HA2 -- the efforts will ultimately prove vain. I am firmly convinced of this fact. And if HA2 cannot be promoted we can't get new members. Without new members, then when our current generation finally moves on ((and it will, I've no doubt of that -- sooner or later, even I will leave HA2 behind for good)) there will be no one left to RP here. HA2 will die a slow and painful death.



Really, our only choice is to move on. How we move on is the question.

We can stay here until, one by one, we each move on from Hyrule Adventures entirely, leaving it behind for good and forever. When the last of us leaves, HA as a whole will die, because no one will be here to carry on the legacy we'll have left behind.

Or we can take action and move on from HA2 to HA3, on a new website so that our success would not be so absolutely dependent on TDC's. This is an option that will require a lot of work from some or all of us, and there's no guarantee that this will be any better than what we already have. No guarantee of success.

But no guarantee of failure, either.

That makes it good enough for me.

I don't really see how rebooting HA2 is such an issue. Any advertisement HA3 would have to do to gain members, any work that would be put in to make HA3 popular on a new site, could be applied just as easily to a rebooted HA2. People aren't going to avoid a new HA2 just because they see it's hosted on TDC. If anything, HA2 being tied so strongly to TDC might bring more people to the main site, which in turn might bolster TDC's community outside of HA2. But even if it doesn't, people could still be attracted to HA2 on its own.

Anyways, if you all go off to make HA3 on a new site, with a new server, you can't call it HA3. Frankly, HA belongs to Jack. It was his idea, this was all his code, and he pays for this server. Even if HA2 is left up, it's clear that it will be abandoned for the new HA3. Jack could have just as easily shut TDC down when he ran out of time to run it, but he didn't. And although he may have left me as the webmaster, he left you in charge of HA2, Alpha. It was your responsibility to keep it running, and it just seems unfair to Jack if you take his brainchild, alter it slightly, and move it and its members over to your own site. It's the same as if I had realized TDC was lacking in members and abandoned it for a new Zelda site, in an effort to capture whatever traffic a new domain would attract.

I guess I wouldn't be surprised if you emailed Jack and asked for permission to do this, and I wouldn't be surprised if he allowed it anyways. But it still somehow seems wrong to me.

Also, Alpha, I didn't make it very clear in my post at the forums, but I will probably be available over the summer to work with TDC and HA2. I actually mentioned it in this topic too.

If you guys completely redesign HA2, and then just hand me the files, I could have it up on the server almost immediately. For more intense stuff, there's a good chance I can handle that over the summer.

My issue is that I can't do it alone, and I know that without help nothing would get done, unless I have some great idea myself. As of right now, however, I have nothing to work with. But if you all decide that you want to perform an overhaul on HA2, or go on an advertising rampage, or even want to help TDC itself out in an effort to bolster HA2's popularity, I will be available to make that happen.

I don't know what else to tell you guys. I'm against a new site for HA3, I think that's pretty clear. The way I see it is: anything you do there, you can do here on TDC. Anything you do to make that popular, you can do to raise HA2's popularity here on TDC. Hell, if you want I'll install the newer software here and you can have a nice, fresh HA3 either way. I'm fairly sure I know how HA2 is set up, and it shouldn't be too difficult to implement it again. I can't promise I'd have time during the semester but I think that's only fair. However, I believe my summer will be fair game. It would still take time and I would still need help, though. I just honestly believe that, if you apply all the same effort you would put into a new HA3 on a new server to the same ideas, but still here on TDC, then you would not only achieve the changes to HA2 you're looking for, but you might even help out TDC. And I don't see why you wouldn't want to do that.

kamakaziplumber wrote:I don't really see how rebooting HA2 is such an issue. Any advertisement HA3 would have to do to gain members, any work that would be put in to make HA3 popular on a new site, could be applied just as easily to a rebooted HA2. People aren't going to avoid a new HA2 just because they see it's hosted on TDC. If anything, HA2 being tied so strongly to TDC might bring more people to the main site, which in turn might bolster TDC's community outside of HA2. But even if it doesn't, people could still be attracted to HA2 on its own.

Well, HA2 being rebooted or converted to HA3 really wouldn't help TDC, I don't think. I believe I speak for all our regular members when I say that we consider (perhaps subconsciously) HA2 to already be its own separate site. In fact, that almost seems the way Jack set it up for us -- I mean, we don't even have any links leading back to your side of the site. Anyone who comes here directly isn't likely to head back over to TDC; and as long as TDC is in this state, nobody's going to be coming from TDC over to our side. Again, I truly feel that if TDC isn't revived, any work we do to revitalize HA2 will be a waste in the long run.

Anyways, if you all go off to make HA3 on a new site, with a new server, you can't call it HA3. Frankly, HA belongs to Jack. It was his idea, this was all his code, and he pays for this server. Even if HA2 is left up, it's clear that it will be abandoned for the new HA3. Jack could have just as easily shut TDC down when he ran out of time to run it, but he didn't. And although he may have left me as the webmaster, he left you in charge of HA2, Alpha. It was your responsibility to keep it running, and it just seems unfair to Jack if you take his brainchild, alter it slightly, and move it and its members over to your own site. It's the same as if I had realized TDC was lacking in members and abandoned it for a new Zelda site, in an effort to capture whatever traffic a new domain would attract.

I guess I wouldn't be surprised if you emailed Jack and asked for permission to do this, and I wouldn't be surprised if he allowed it anyways. But it still somehow seems wrong to me.

Oh, believe me, we have never had any intention of doing something like HA3 without Jack's full backing. I agree with you 100% there -- it is his game, his work, his ingenious idea, and it would be criminal of us to do an HA without his support. I haven't talked with him yet about the idea, primarily because I see no reason to ask until and unless we actually decide to do this thing.

As for whether HA3 would be 'right' or 'wrong', that ultimately will be Jack's call. I, however, seem to be seeing it from the opposite end of the spectrum compared to you, KP.

I agree, HA2 was left in my care -- and as such, I feel it is my responsibility to see to its success and continuation, neither of which will occur so long as TDC is floundering, gasping for breath. With you having apparently vanished, that was almost assured, so I had to consider my options, same as I have been advocating everyone do: we either stay and HA2 dies when we leave, or we go elsewhere and allow Jack's brilliant RPG to live on. In a new form and with some differences, yes, but keeping his vision alive in a way that staying here never would have.

If you're actually going to be around and working to restore TDC, though, then those fears may end up being dismissed. However, until I see TDC coming back out of the gutter, I'm forced to 1) continue thinking first and foremost about Hyrule Adventures and 2) work to ensure its survival. Should that prove impossible on TDC, then I would feel guilty if we didn't leave.

Also, Alpha, I didn't make it very clear in my post at the forums, but I will probably be available over the summer to work with TDC and HA2. I actually mentioned it in this topic too.

Ah, excellent. Glad to hear that you'll be around after all -- everything you've said until now seemed to say you wouldn't actually have all that much time, just more than you do right now. Seemed more of a "I'll have time to put up any work you guys do for me," deal. I do think there's several obvious things that could be done to help out, but they'd require a great deal of work -- completing walkthroughs and getting stuff up-to-date again, for the most part (TDC has no Spirit Tracks or Skyward Sword sections yet, you know). But yeah, like you said, it's unrealistic to expect anything like that from you by yourself, so I'm not going to push for it.

I don't know what else to tell you guys. I'm against a new site for HA3, I think that's pretty clear. The way I see it is: anything you do there, you can do here on TDC. Anything you do to make that popular, you can do to raise HA2's popularity here on TDC. Hell, if you want I'll install the newer software here and you can have a nice, fresh HA3 either way. I'm fairly sure I know how HA2 is set up, and it shouldn't be too difficult to implement it again. I can't promise I'd have time during the semester but I think that's only fair. However, I believe my summer will be fair game. It would still take time and I would still need help, though. I just honestly believe that, if you apply all the same effort you would put into a new HA3 on a new server to the same ideas, but still here on TDC, then you would not only achieve the changes to HA2 you're looking for, but you might even help out TDC. And I don't see why you wouldn't want to do that.

Yeah, you've made your stance pretty clear. I think I've done the same, only I'm all for a new site for HA3. I think a new site would allow us to put the focus on Hyrule Adventures that the RPG deserves, and really improve upon Jack's astounding basis in a way that being a small subsection of TDC doesn't allow. Plus, we wouldn't have to bother a busy guy like you any time we want to make small updates or changes.

I have updates.

First of all, Alpha, I'm not sure if it was this way with you, but I can honestly say that if it wasn't for HA2 I would never have visited TDC, link to the main site or not. I came here first, and moved to TDC later. But a link can be put up easily, that's not the issue. The point is that, if there's any chance at all for TDC to be revived, HA2 is one of its strongest points. Regardless of its level of activity, being able to point to HA2 as one of TDC's major accomplishments is a huge plus. If HA2 moves to another site I can say with some certainty that TDC will die. Frankly, HA2 is one of the few things TDC can claim as original. Walkthroughs and game info are posted on every Zelda site, and forums can be found all over the place. But not every site has a Zelda forum RPG, and very few have one that is well done or as well cared for as HA2. To lose it is to lose an integral part of TDC, and I just can't imagine the site can survive without it, even if you don't quite see the link.

Anyways, updates.

I will be even more available during the summer than I thought, it seems. I wanted to wait until I had this confirmed before posting it, but I'll be staying on campus over the summer and will probably just be working at the Help Desk during the day. I am more than willing to devote free time to TDC as long as there is work to be done, and yes, my definition of TDC still includes HA2.

Also, I looked up the mods that Exploding Deku Nut has, and it does seem like those could work for an updated version of HA2. I tested an installation locally and everything seems to be in order; the money mod is nearly exactly the same, plus some of the tweaks you mentioned, and the shop/items mod would only need some slight tweaking to make it perfect. They both seem to be derived from the mods we use here, though. I can tell you that, a few years ago, those weren't supported anymore.

As such, it would be remarkably easy to create an HA3 right here on the TDC server. I'm thinking: start a new database, install the new version of phpBB with the new mods, and then spend a few days getting things up to speed. If we wanted a carbon copy of HA2, but with none of the old topics or members, it would be a matter of copying the navigation files and then creating the forums as necessary. If we wanted a completely new HA, but the same navigation methods, I already know how HA2's code is set up and it wouldn't be much of a hassle to change it over, it would just take a lot more effort to start fresh because... well we'd be starting fresh.

Of course, a new database would mean HA2 would still be available for viewing.

These are just offers on the table, of course. I can't exactly stop you from making a new site. But it is 100% possible to start an HA3 here on TDC, and as I said earlier, TDC needs HA.

One last thing. I'm sure it's obvious that I've been thinking a lot about TDC and HA2 recently, even before this topic came up. OK, maybe not before it, technically, but I didn't visit HA2 to discuss the possibility of HA3. I miss it. I know I was against HA3 when the idea was originally floating around, but that was a long time ago, and I don't think I had quite abandoned HA2 at the time. But now that I left... I would almost prefer an HA3. I'd certainly be more likely to participate in an HA3.

Basically what I'm saying is, I want to get back into HA... but I'd like for it to be HA3.

I also happen to know at least one other person who I could introduce to HA, and who is actually excited about the concept, but that isn't my point. My point is, HA3 could be a great idea. I'm willing to work on it, a lot. I'd very much like to see it happen. But I think it's clear that I'd like for it to happen on TDC. I know you don't need me to make it happen, but I'd like to be a part of it... I just can't, in good conscience, work on another site before TDC.

So, yeah. I'm up for the challenge of making an HA3 work on TDC. It's up to you guys to take that offer, if you want it. The summer is approaching quickly. I'm obviously all for working on TDC as well. I don't know what else to say.

If I may, I'd like to butt in with a few words of my own real quick.

KP, I think we're all aware that The Desert Colossus is very slowly dying. It had its years, and I believe that it has quite a few more years ahead of it. But that's being hopeful on chance. Chance is exactly what it is- Not certain.

I love Hyrule Adventures more than any other site. I spend more time here than I do the forums over at TDC, and I've loved this website for a very very long time. I'm not saying that I love this place more than you or anyone else- but that I'm not willing to leave it to chance. I've had a growing fear that someday soon, Jack will check up on TDC and see how dead it really is- how much activity its lost. I fear that there's a chance he'll nuke the site, or simply stop paying the bill. A point I don't think Alpha has considered yet is that we're not the ones paying for this place- at any time we could lose it. Now let me explain something:

I love TDC and Hyrule Adventures. But unlike The Desert Colossus, we have a chance to save Hyrule Adventures. I love everyone and everything here too much to leave it up to chance- to the mercy of the wind. Even if Jack lets the site continue on for many years, we can face the fact that TDC is sinking. I'd do anything to get Hyrule Adventures on a different ship than to watch it disappear entirely. The fact is, we can save it- preserve the thing as a whole. I'm sure that if it happened, Alpha could advertise for TDC over at HA3... You know, if it gets as popular as I hope it would.

Jack's had more than enough chances to "nuke" TDC, I'm sure he's reminded every time he's charged for it. If he ever decides that he doesn't want to pay for TDC anymore, he wouldn't just delete it, he'd let us know first. And if that were to happen, I'd most likely take up the bill personally.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jack would be more likely to stop paying for TDC if he saw that HA2 was splitting off to form its own site.

And even if HA3 does advertise for TDC, that doesn't really make much of a difference. It would be just about the same situation as HA3 continuing to exist on TDC's server, except without HA there would be one less, major thing to advertise about TDC in the first place.