What do you think about ganon? I think he's evil.
Well, if Ganon wasn't evil, there wouldn't be a game. :)
He finally gets a personality in TWW. Now we see some motivation for what he does. Wait, that's Ganondorf. Well, I think Ganon has two possible ways of existance (my wording sucks, I know, but it could be worse). One, he's an evil essence that possesses Ganondorf against his will. Two, Ganondorf tried to gain Hyrule, and when he was defeated by the Hero of Time, the Triforce of Power turned him into Ganon.
Don't tell me, I haven't beaten the game yet remember.
Neither have I, but I read a few novelizations of it and have the player's guide (don't ask unless it's a PM). I don't care much if a video game is spoiled for me, because part of the reason I play video games is for the challenge. It's only a movie or a show I don't want spoiled; the only challenge is watching it.
Ever played Tales of Symphonia? That's a game with so many shocking revelations the quality would fall dramatically if it was spoiled. And what challenge is there if you use a guide? :-X
As for the topic, how do you define evil? It's really only an opinion. In Star Wars Episode III Obi-Wan tells Anakin that Palpatine is evil and then Anakin say:
'In my point of view the Jedi are evil.'
Ganon may well be evil, but I doubt he views himself that way. The reason he attacks Hyrule is not only just because he can, but of jealousy, and the lust for power.
Actually, I just got the guide because I'm a dork. I don't plan on having it by me when I play the game.
Evil is based on perspective, I suppose. But I also suppose that if you hurt hundreds of innocent people in pursuit of power, that makes you evil to some extent.
Agreed, but the reasons might be twisted somewhat. As far as he is conserned he's probably only 'sacrifising' them so that he can rule the lands like a 'wise' ruler. Kind of reminds me of Kallor in the book Memories of Ice by Steven Erikson. When someone asks him if betrayal stings his sense of honour he says:
'If you call it a sudden reversal of strategy, the sting fades.'
This comes from the guy who massacred an entire continent that he was ruling just so that the Elder Gods wouldn't show any triumph when defeating him.
What evilslayer said.
All very good points. Sometimes, I wonder how it's possible to live in a world where just about everything can be taken several ways. :-X
Interesting :-\
Quote from: Hi no Seijin on August 01, 2006, 05:48:11 PM
Well, if Ganon wasn't evil, there wouldn't be a game. :)
There would be Minish Cap and AoL and MM.
i despise him with every fiber of my being. >:(
QuoteThere would be Minish Cap and AoL and MM.
Neither AoL nor MM would have taken place.
AoL: Link would not have met Impa, nor Zelda. He would therefore not have come to North Castle, where the Sleeping Princess sleeps.
MM: Link was searching for Navi when he stumbled into the Skull Kid. He would not have met Navi if it hadn't been for Ganon.
I think he looks like death warmed over. But underneath that creepy Faca'd, you'll find he's....even creepier. ;D ;D
I think he is a pretty sweet villian.
I think he is nice and lovely. Like a flower...
Nah he's a cool villain but he ain't that evil. I mean he isn't very murderous as such.
I like him better when he doesn't look like a pig.(Literally)
yes me too.
pig form looks scary, human form is just ugly
I especially like the Oot Ganon.
ganon in AlttP looks like a deformed dolphin :-*
Yeah OoT Ganon is best. His swords just rock.
Uh, no, thats TWW Ganondorf. The Oot Ganondorf didn't use swords, unless of course you're talking about the pig-like reincarnation of evil.
Ganon is the pig thing Ganondorf is the human form.
Therefore I was talking about OoT Ganon.
Oh, but the name Ganon is a nickname of the real Ganondorf, usually. So, I didn't know which one you were talking about. ;)
Yeah, I should have said the monster form Ganon.
Hmm, that would have made more sense.
Yah, Anyways his swords are shiny and gold and sparkly and me likes them :-X
me dos
Me tres. ;D
Late reply about Tales Of Symphonia, but that story just sucked. What was that whole "sacrifice" scene and the whole "Llyod making a vow thing"? The game has good gameplay and therefor, has some quality. But I have yet to find a rpg with a worse story. About 90% of the story development, I wasn't sure whether I should be crying or laughing.
About Ganon(dorf), I think he has become evil. But once, he was the wisest of all rulers. In Oot, the Hylian royal family rules all, not just Hylians. I've played the game when I was very young, and only a bit. I'm replaying it now and I'm just disgusted by the fact even the fairies bow for that royal family. What kind of peace is that? Ganondorf in my opinion, was the only one who stood up against that injustice, and was marked the bad guy for that. The family used their sweet little blond princess to make sure we would "understand" that. I can imagine him turning evil for real because of that.
Yeah, I kinda understand that. Each race should have their own rule as such. I mean the Sheikahs were a whole race dedicated to serving the Royal family.
He did go a bit over the top. What with destroying everything though.
yeah....he kinda did...maybe the royal family is corrupt?
I think there was some sorta thing between Nabooru and him...I read this fanfic that was about it and it was pretty good.
QuoteAbout Ganon(dorf), I think he has become evil. But once, he was the wisest of all rulers. In Oot, the Hylian royal family rules all, not just Hylians. I've played the game when I was very young, and only a bit. I'm replaying it now and I'm just disgusted by the fact even the fairies bow for that royal family. What kind of peace is that? Ganondorf in my opinion, was the only one who stood up against that injustice, and was marked the bad guy for that. The family used their sweet little blond princess to make sure we would "understand" that. I can imagine him turning evil for real because of that.
Er... just, WTF? For one, the Gerudos does NOT live in Hyrule, so they are unaffected by the rule of the Hylia. Secondly, Hyrule is NOT a tyranny. If the King hadn't united all the kingdoms of Hyrule the lands would have been destroyed by war.
The King brought peace to Hyrule and the people love him. That's why they bow for him.
Quote from: Evilslayer on August 25, 2006, 12:50:49 AM
Er... just, WTF? For one, the Gerudos does NOT live in Hyrule, so they are unaffected by the rule of the Hylia. Secondly, Hyrule is NOT a tyranny. If the King hadn't united all the kingdoms of Hyrule the lands would have been destroyed by war.
The King brought peace to Hyrule and the people love him. That's why they bow for him.
Doubt that. You see, I could believe that, but I just don't. If I would've been Darunia, I would've felt so much more insulted by the fact I'm apparently not worthy enough to get a representative that is more than some child, who learned that stupid song in 1 of the 10 minutes he met someone of the royal family and became their representative. I hate it how that song grants access to EVERYTHING. Who does the Hylian royal family think they are? Is Hylian business Zora business? No, and this isn't even some equal thing or so. The other royalties are "less". And what's with that race that's completely dedicated to serving them? Peace can be established by many things, but the whole "these dudes swore loyalty to the royal family", "that one did" etc. And why the faeries? Aren't they supposed to help all who seek aid rather than only a member or representative of the royal family. Even if all parties agree, it's still a twisted kind of peace. Termina does a better job.
Quote from: Nabooru on August 24, 2006, 02:40:00 PM
I think there was some sorta thing between Nabooru and him...I read this fanfic that was about it and it was pretty good.
I think he wasn't born evil and he and Nabooru were "friends" then he turned evil and they split up.
Quote from: LadyNintendo on August 25, 2006, 03:54:16 AM
Quote from: Evilslayer on August 25, 2006, 12:50:49 AM
Er... just, WTF? For one, the Gerudos does NOT live in Hyrule, so they are unaffected by the rule of the Hylia. Secondly, Hyrule is NOT a tyranny. If the King hadn't united all the kingdoms of Hyrule the lands would have been destroyed by war.
The King brought peace to Hyrule and the people love him. That's why they bow for him.
Doubt that. You see, I could believe that, but I just don't. If I would've been Darunia, I would've felt so much more insulted by the fact I'm apparently not worthy enough to get a representative that is more than some child, who learned that stupid song in 1 of the 10 minutes he met someone of the royal family and became their representative. I hate it how that song grants access to EVERYTHING. Who does the Hylian royal family think they are? Is Hylian business Zora business? No, and this isn't even some equal thing or so. The other royalties are "less". And what's with that race that's completely dedicated to serving them? Peace can be established by many things, but the whole "these dudes swore loyalty to the royal family", "that one did" etc. And why the faeries? Aren't they supposed to help all who seek aid rather than only a member or representative of the royal family. Even if all parties agree, it's still a twisted kind of peace. Termina does a better job.
Uh-huh. But you see, the thing is, that Daruna is pretty much the leader of the Gorons. King Zora is the King of the Zoras, and the Deku tree is the father of the Kokiris, just as Ganondorf is the King of his own territory. No, the King's bussiness isn't really Zora's, because the Zora's have their own king. You see, Daruna is the leader of the Gorons, making him the self proclaimed BROTHER of the King. The problem with Ganondorf is that he is a theif, killed people, uses dark magic, and is power hungry. Why do you think he got the triforce of power? Because of the great war, the King of Hyrule united the areas in Hyrule to make one united country. But Gerudos didn't want that, because they were probably upset about the loss, they didn't want any part of it. The Kokiris didn't want any part of it, either, because they didn't want to leave the safety of the deku tree. You see, they are ruled by their own leaders, or they would've been destroyed, like someone already said before. And that's all I have to say.
Quote from: x*TwilightZelda*x on August 25, 2006, 09:04:34 AM
Quote from: Nabooru on August 24, 2006, 02:40:00 PM
I think there was some sorta thing between Nabooru and him...I read this fanfic that was about it and it was pretty good.
I think he wasn't born evil and he and Nabooru were "friends" then he turned evil and they split up.
I think they had something and then he began to want power and when he was takin over hyrule he became like possesive of her or something.
Well, what he ruled wasn't enough for him. He wanted MORE! MORE POWER! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
ahhh! :o
Ganondorf is the bad guy,period.Its a game, there no corruption in it guys. Its not real!
And so whats the point of being on here? This is where people discuss different options and opinions. And mine is there is a reason.
Quote from: MasterKey on August 25, 2006, 05:43:03 PM
ahhh! :o
Ganondorf is the bad guy,period.Its a game, there no corruption in it guys. Its not real!
You have NO proof that that is true.
Anyway you are saying oh its a game we shouldn't look for a back story.
Have you never looked at the compendium?
I have changed my oppinion! I like the Ganon in TWW better than the Oot Ganon!
I like ganondorf better then Ganon. I don't like monster pigs very much. Still the number one villain in my heart will always be Vaati. Sure he may not be as evil, but I love him anyways. :)
I'm agreeing with Aero.
i've looked at the compendium, i just never thought that Zelda would be used to braibwash people!
Hehe, me neither. It's just an argument I found when specifically looking at the Hylian royal family as power hungry people.....And I still can't get over the Great Fairy also needing Zelda's Lullaby part.
But apart from them, after TWW, I just don't believe Ganondorf is plain evil. Phht, he treated the captured Zelda decently, he didn't intend to kill Zelda and Link, and just what he said.....I felt like going in the game and give him a big warm hug promising everything would be okay. At least till that point, I don't think he would've been a bad leader. He just used violence in the past because he knew he couldn't compete with the HRF.
because he was an outlaw, right?
QuoteAnd why the faeries?
They don't bow to the King.
QuoteBut apart from them, after TWW, I just don't believe Ganondorf is plain evil. Phht, he treated the captured Zelda decently, he didn't intend to kill Zelda and Link, and just what he said.....I felt like going in the game and give him a big warm hug promising everything would be okay. At least till that point, I don't think he would've been a bad leader. He just used violence in the past because he knew he couldn't compete with the HRF.
Do you remember OoT? Ganon is a master of deception. Besides, he would be a bad leader. He let his mask fall when he stretched out his hand and demanded the Triforce to give him Hyrule.
yea, i dont think hed ever be a good ruler. if he was a truly good leader, hed be able to posses the whole Triforce, like Link does.
Yes, they do. Otherwise, tell me, how do I have to get a Great Fairy to talk to me without using Zelda's Lullaby?
And for part 2, back then, it was pretty obvious he wasn't really loyal. He had the whole "I'm loyal. What, what evil grin?" thing going on. Like, the only thing that could've been more clear to that brain-dead king or anyone, would've been about...ten signs pointing at him saying "Beware! Evil person" and then a skull. And lot of these babies: !. Don't forget he has become older, probably wiser. He has had a lot of time to think about his rather rash behaviour in those early days. He's also not being influenced by the Twinrova anymore. And uhh, what mask? What else could he have asked for after deciding to kidnap all girls with pointy ears in order to find Zelda? It's pretty obvious he wasn't gonna ask for chocolate cookies (hmm, chocolate cookies. :)) If he woul'd've gotten his wish done, would that have been so bad? Would the return of Old Hyrule be a bad thing? So what he has it. I'd rather be loyal to him than to OOT's HRF. At least there aren't signs everywhere claiming how all powerfull he is.
And Link doesn't possess the whole triforce, only courage. That's 1/3th (or since I sorta believe the fourth piece theory, 1/4th)
That depends on what game you're referring to. It's Wisdom in LoZ, and the whole in AoL and ALttP. But the point is, he has a balanced heart. Ganon does not.
And in TWW Ganon have some moments where his mask falls. Like when he discovers that Tetra is Zelda, when he claims that the gods destroyed the Hyruleans, and when he demands Hyrule for himself.
The return of Old Hyrule would not be a bad thing in itself. However, Hyrule would fall under his dark rule once again. That's why he won't kill Link or Zelda. Killing them would be freeing them from that tyranny.
QuoteYes, they do. Otherwise, tell me, how do I have to get a Great Fairy to talk to me without using Zelda's Lullaby?
Gameplay.
Good point!
Again, what mask? Even at his most innocent moments, he was far from a saint. But even at his most evil moments, I felt sorry for him. Can you imagine how it must feel? You tried to get something you don't deserve less than "them"(!!!!!!), maybe not the best way possible, but anyway. You succeeded, untill that kid comes back after 7 years ruins everything. (For those that believe in Nabooru & Ganondorf, add that too. Otherwise, ignore). You get imprisoned for I have no clue how long in a realm that certainly isn't what you have hoped for in all those years. (note* please no stuff about events between these games, as we don't really know what to place there) Eventually, you come back to discover that world to be gone. What you gonna do? Try it once more, that's what he did (admirable). And then, eventually, when you are so close to finally getting the one thing you always wanted, out of nowhere a fat, officially dead king comes and ruins everything. Tell me, do you really don't think he might have feelings? I know I would've grabbed the first living thing near me, and strangled it. And am I evil? No way, I'm a pacifist. :)
And dark rule? Again, if the Hyruleans would give him fair chance, I don't think he would be that bad.
Also, gameplay is no excuse. The song is in the story connected to the HRF only, and it is required WAY too many times. Besides, the texts in the game are enough proof.
It is gameplay because Link is forced to talk to them to learn magic. He's a Hylian.
And Ganon is 'evil'. He was intended to be 'evil' since the first game. The only difference now is that he's a 3D villain, a villain with reasons. Trusting him to become a wise ruler would be a fatal error. He gets the Triforce of Power for a reason.
And why do you think he wants the Triforce? Power, of course. With it he will become a god, even above the three Goddesses. You complain that the Hylians supposedly makes all the other races bow to them. Do you think it would be better if even the Goddesses were made to bow to Ganon?
if the goddesse and the whole world had to bow to Ganon, it would be chaotic and unruly, and evil would spread throguhut Hyrule and kill hundreds. Hes evil. if you gave him a chance to rulew, he'd take over hyrule and destroy everything. You have been tricked by Ganons scheme.
There are so many times he first has to do something else before he can go along with the story again. And like, why for instance don't you have to use the the Song of Storms in the Water Temple? It would be more logical and less annoying. Well, I admit, using that song there isn't my real problem. The fact that according to the text the song has been HRF only for I-don't-how-long and it is stupidly required in a temple that is NOT their domain, just like the waterfall was NOT their domain. It's even a bit confusing. The HRF has way too much power.
And "intended" to be evil doesn't count. There have been more games that presented characters a certain way. But then, the game turned out to be a huge succes and they made sequals. And it's not that rare to see characters switch sides, due to new info being side-switched or getting reasons for their actions. It's called character development, and if it remains loyal to the aspects that make the character, it's a good thing.
And yes, maybe it wouldn't be good. Maybe it would be bad, really bad. But did he ever get a fair chance to prove himself? Nope, because he ain't of the HRF. Besides, what do we know about those goddesses? I know the Giants are okay, but I don't know anything about them. The spirit/god race has not really gotten much attention.
We know they created Hyrule, and gave it the Triforce, and created everything you see in Hyrule, so obviouslt they are good and can be trusted.
Well, why do you think only someone in the balance gets the whole pie?
Creation is not proof of good intentions. But let's just drop that subject, because it's offtopic, and because I also just don't believe they're evil. More likely indifferent.
The new owner has to be in balance, because that symbolizes the goddesses' cooperation (when creating the world.) They all did their fair share of work. However, it is nowhere stated that person has to be good or evil or whatever. I think that if Ganondorf had been just a little less aggresive, he would've gotten the triforce.
He also needs great wisdom. Wisdom is the opposite of corruption.
Quoteif the goddesse and the whole world had to bow to Ganon, it would be chaotic and unruly, and evil would spread throguhut Hyrule and kill hundreds. Hes evil. if you gave him a chance to rulew, he'd take over hyrule and destroy everything. You have been tricked by Ganons scheme.
Hundreds? More like thousands, or tens of thousands.
QuoteThe fact that according to the text the song has been HRF only for I-don't-how-long and it is stupidly required in a temple that is NOT their domain, just like the waterfall was NOT their domain. It's even a bit confusing. The HRF has way too much power.
It's also required in GANON'S CASTLE, so it's nothing more than a gameplay element.
QuoteBut did he ever get a fair chance to prove himself? Nope, because he ain't of the HRF.
He does get a chance. Seven years.
Quote from: LadyNintendo on August 28, 2006, 09:16:42 AM
...That's 1/3th (or since I sorta believe the fourth piece theory, 1/4th)
Umm, sorry for going off topic, but it's the Triforce. Tri- meaning three. Not four. Tetra- or quad- is four. If it was the Quadforce or the Tetraforce, then I would support a fourth piece. But seeing as how it's called the Triforce, there are only three pieces. That inverted triangle on the Hylian Shield is just there for decorative purposes, nothing more.
As for Ganon, he's willing to kill thousands to get to power. Pure evil, no questions asked. As for Ganondorf, that's a bit iffy. I think of him in two ways. One, he is possessed by Ganon, the Gerudo witches having chosen him as a vessel for their master. 'Dorf may have proven to be a good leader had it not been for the evil inside him. Two, Ganondorf tried to take over Hyrule for the purposes stated in TWW, but the Triforce of Power corrupted him, turning him into Ganon.
He's evil, so he will never get a chance to rule, giving him a chance would be like giving a nuke to a terrorist.
Uhm, the Tetraforce does not exist, but a fourth piece is possible. Even if there were 132984632875645 pieces, it would still be the Triforce. It's about the shape, the triangle part, not the number of pieces. In the first game, it was already called the Triforce while there were only two pieces, with no intentions of a third piece. Think about it. Power is physical strength, wisdom mental strength. That duo only later became a trio, but it has always been called the Triforce for their/it's shape.
And earlier, I stated I think Ganondorf has become evil, but did not start as such and that I think there are enough arguments to feel sorry for him.
i will never feel sorry for him. HES EVIL.
He may be evil, but why is he evil? What he has done may be worthy of pity. Listen to what Zelda says when you beat Ganondorf in OoT. "Pitiful man. Without a strong heart, he could not control the power of the Triforce." (Or something very close to that.)
Let's also look at Gollum. Once he was a hobbit, or something very much like a hobbit. He was a good guy. But then he came upon the One Ring, and it corrupted him. He wasn't exactly evil, but his condition was pitiful. He was tortured by the thought of it and not many had hope for him. But Frodo took pity because he believed Gollum could be saved.
Also from The Lord of the Rings, Elrond said, "For nothing is evil in the beginning." Ganondorf became evil because he lusted for power. He killed to get it. The same goes for Ganon, who may or may not believe to be the same person. At one point, they were good.
Shifting the subject to Dark Link real quick, he's the same. Sure, he was created to kill Link, but I think that had someone else created him or if Dark Link had left Ganondorf, he may not be evil. Ganondorf was an influence on Dark Link. He filled the shadow with hatred towards Link. Dark Link could have very well been on Link's side.
The quote is "Pitiful man. Without a strong, righteous mind....etc." Makes him look more like someone who gets influenced by a lot of external factors rather than choosing his own path. "Weak minds" only follow a good path if they get the proper influences. It seems to me TWW Ganondorf behaved like he did (compared to OOT Ganondorf) because he has had time to realize that and grow.
And the righteous mind part is quite new. Like Zelda just put it in the sentence to mentally kick Ganondorf, the one she was unable to do anything against. (I don't blame her for the last part, but I do for the first part.)
you may have a point. he was good at one time, as is everyone. But he turned evil, and thats the bottom line.
I thought it was because he was power hungry. Either that, or it was the way Twinrova raised him.
it may be hisd upbringing that had some effects.
I believe that Twinrova resurrected him through childbirth (they are his surrogate mothers, after all), in which case he's already tried to conquer Hyrule at least once. The Master Sword has been used before and the Sages has been gathered before, so why not?
And before anyone says that the King wouldn't have trusted him if he's attacked before, Ganondorf is just a name. Probably a normal boy name. Besides, my theory is that he was Ganon. If that's the case there's no way the King of Hyrule would suspect a Gerudo, even if the name is similar.
Some suspect Ganon's spirit may be inside Ganondorf, possesing him to take over and destroy all of Hyrule.
Quote from: Evilslayer on September 08, 2006, 05:36:53 AM
I believe that Twinrova resurrected him through childbirth (they are his surrogate mothers, after all), in which case he's already tried to conquer Hyrule at least once. The Master Sword has been used before and the Sages has been gathered before, so why not?
And before anyone says that the King wouldn't have trusted him if he's attacked before, Ganondorf is just a name. Probably a normal boy name. Besides, my theory is that he was Ganon. If that's the case there's no way the King of Hyrule would suspect a Gerudo, even if the name is similar.
I agree with you a little, but even though it isn't the first game ever made, it occures the first in the timeline.