What side do you takje opn this controversial topic?
Pro-Life: you believe all babaies, no matter what, should live.
Pro-Choice: you believe a woman has the right to choose whether to give birth or abort the baby.
Im Pro-Life; i side with my religion.
I warn against anyone insulting others or arguing explosively, respect each others opinions...
pro-life I guess it should be able to live but if it doesn't make it then it's sad. :(
I am pro-life, because of my religion, also.
Here's the thing with me. I often stand on both sides of the issue (I believe this prevented me from writing a decent persuavive paper in school).
Anywho, I'm all for saving the baby, but if it becomes apparent that the mother or the baby will be in danger of dying for any odd reason, then I say sacrifice the baby; especially if the mother is my wife (just a little note for those of you who might take this the wrong way: no, I am not married; I don't even have a girlfriend). Although, if the baby is more likely to live than the mother, I suppose it's up to the mother to decide if she wants to sacrifice the baby or herself.
But I don't like the idea of getting an abortion just because the mother is a teenager, the mother doesn't want the child, or both. There are better ways of dealing with an unwanted child.
I'm pro-choice. The only one for now apparently.
Do not take this the wrong way.
While I prefer to see a fetus actually having a chance to become more, I think there are enough cases that make its "death" a rational solution.
For one, I myself would rather cut it out with the first sharp thing I can find, than carry something I don't want and never wanted for nine whole months. And noone can make me. This may sound harsh, but for me it's the truth. I never want children and have felt that way for six years now. But suppose I'll get raped somewhere in the future and get pregnant. My body and mind will have been abused once, would I need to be reminded of that for nine months not to mention the rather painful/exhausting climax? Carrying something with me that my body prefers to support above itself? And the child? I would put it up for adoption of course, if I allow it to be born. Chances are he/she will discover it and come look for its biological parents. Ain't that gonna be fun.
Even if the sex would've been voluntarily, some of the above still counts. We are among the few species on this planet that do it for fun. A baby, looking at it that way, can be an unwanted side-effect. Even protection can fail and not all people have been given decent info about it.
Another thing is when the doctors know or give the child a high chance of being born with an awful "flaw". There's enough that can go wrong. Then, it's far more an act of love if the parents choose to not give the child a chance to suffer. Or what if they have/want more children? Then they may consider the fact that they will need to spend far more time with that child than with the others. When it comes to health, even money. For everyone, abortus could be the best solution.
The mother possibly dying if she'd give birth to the child is the final reason why I'm pro-choice. You can't honestly expect her to go on then?
While I do not want to insult anyone, why do you consider your religion to be a sufficient sole argument why you're pro-life? Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against religion or being pro-life. But I do think choosing sides in such a delicate matter should be more than just choosing what you're religion tells you to. I think it's kinda shallow if you don't. Surely, you must have other reasons, thought about it, why you choose to be pro-life?
Quote from: LadyNintendo on October 31, 2006, 04:07:09 AM
The mother possibly dying if she'd give birth to the child is the final reason why I'm pro-choice. You can't honestly expect her to go on then?
I just want to say something about this bit. Don't underestimate a mother's love. It can make a woman do anything for her child.
That's why I'm pro-choice. It's not like: "You might die, so to be sure that won't happen, we'll get the fetus out of there now." :)
It should always be the mother's/parents' own decision.
Methinks this topic dos needs be banned.
Why? It's not breaking any rules. Sure, it's a delicate subject, but nowhere in the rules does it say we're not allowed to talk about it.
I am pro-choice.
I agree that any life is worth saving and I think it would be better to, say, put the baby up for adoption, as many people can't have children of their own.
However I think every Mother should choose. No one should be forced to have a baby, thats just wrong.
I have to agree in this case with TZ and Lady Nintendo. You know that there are people in this country who won't let a woman get an abortion solely because she is a woman? It's the thing where they have to consult with a so-called higher authority, IE: A man.
The thing about this is that there so many ways and circumstances to decide, in the end, it should all boil down to the woman's choice. One man cannot tell another what to do with their body, or what happens. That would imply a sort of slavery. And this is the thing, women are given so little respect and it get's to the point where the woman is controlled completely. This can get to the case in some parts of society where women are trapped and constantly abused without any way of getting out or protecting themselves.
Quote from: Hi no Seijin on October 30, 2006, 09:53:33 PM
Here's the thing with me. I often stand on both sides of the issue (I believe this prevented me from writing a decent persuavive paper in school).
Anywho, I'm all for saving the baby, but if it becomes apparent that the mother or the baby will be in danger of dying for any odd reason, then I say sacrifice the baby; especially if the mother is my wife (just a little note for those of you who might take this the wrong way: no, I am not married; I don't even have a girlfriend). Although, if the baby is more likely to live than the mother, I suppose it's up to the mother to decide if she wants to sacrifice the baby or herself.
But I don't like the idea of getting an abortion just because the mother is a teenager, the mother doesn't want the child, or both. There are better ways of dealing with an unwanted child.
yeah if the baby's or mom's life is in danger it's a hard decision to make.
once the fetus is formed the baby is alive therefore having an abortion could be considered murder which isn't only a sin but a crime(or felony)
Heres my side, I'm pro-life
The fact that you went and got yourself pregnant is your own problem.( excluding rape victims but still shouldn't abort). Just because you can't control your hormones dosen't mean another human being should suffer because of your carelessness. If you don't want the child put it up for adoption. That way it still has a chance to make something of its life.
wow, im gald that this topic is not exploding out of hand. good job, everyone! ;D
But, i would just like to say something. Though i said i am pro-life, sometimes i have my doubts about which is right. While I'm pro-life 90% of the time, i cant help but feel confused about the topic every now and then. It really complicated.
Quote from: Dr. Rabies on October 31, 2006, 02:12:50 PM
once the fetus is formed the baby is alive therefore having an abortion could be considered murder which isn't only a sin but a crime(or felony)
-holds up tootsie pop-
I totally agree with you on that one!
Lots of things are crimes these days, it's a loose interpretation of everything. Even suicide is considered a crime. What then for one who commited suicide? Lock up his body?
Heh, It's not completely hormones, and you think you can control, but it cannot simply be helped. It's always the man who has the final word in society, rarely the woman. It is the man that gets her pregnant, but the man doesn't understand or share these responcibilities that are a deep burden. The honest thing is we don't honestly show enough understanding for people's choices.
A majority of things are blamed on women. But it's the man that's gotta put on the protection. It's the man that's gotta be more gentler to the woman. SO many things, so many injustices have been blamed on women, and what will it take to realize beyond one's views?
Not enough understanding, and when the strictest comes to strictest, it is the Man that makes a deadly thing.
Murder is a crime according to the law and could be considered a sin.
However, I said something about "death" of the fetus earlier. The reason I used " ", is because a fetus is only technically alive. Of course it depends how old it is. But in the early stages, it is the same as one of those people who are being kept alive by machines. Sure, the difference is there is hope/future for the fetus, and not for those people. But I wouldn't consider shutting of the machines murder either.
How come getting pregnant is the woman's fault? Didn't the man want sex either and didn't he choose to not use protection either? But I guess men got nothing to fear. A woman should be more aware of the consequences than a man, but telling her what she has to do with her body can never be justified.
It's also not about the child eventually being, but about those nice nine months you will have to carry it. So adoption is not an equal alternative. Women are free to choose it, but it's not only about who has to take care of teh child once it's born.
Sometimes protection doesn't work there are many reasons. Also as Lady Nintendo said, those 9 months can be awful for some people. They have to take time off work and often risk getting fired, they can be vilonetly sick, and other side effects.
You know, if you don't want to have a child because it hurts alot, don't worry! They're pills that make the pain go away, but it has a little sensation for when you need to push. And if it doesn't work, the nurse's will try to get you to look at something and try to get your mind off of how much it hurts.
I'm totally pro-life
Quote from: MCRFreak on November 01, 2006, 12:31:00 PM
You know, if you don't want to have a child because it hurts alot, don't worry! They're pills that make the pain go away, but it has a little sensation for when you need to push. And if it doesn't work, the nurse's will try to get you to look at something and try to get your mind off of how much it hurts.
:o
I actually didn't know how to reply to that for awhile.
With all respect, but have you any idea what you are saying? How you reduce a woman to a breeding machine? If she complains, feed her some pills and it's okay? Pain is only one aspect of pregnancy. Mental and physical damage (different per case) afterwards are another aspect. Or are therapy and pills a better alternative than getting rid of what you didn't want in the first place?
Also, the actual birth requires NINE months of physical problems. Now, if a woman wants the child, then it's not a problem. She chooses to have a child and chooses to also take any problems that come with it. Love (or whatever it is in this case) is the only thing that truly can give comfort.
So what if the woman really doesn't want the child? Because she's disgusted by it because it's the child of her rapist. Because she never wanted it in the first place but something went wrong (one way or another). Nothing of meaning can help that woman get through it if she really doesn't want it. You can't do that to her.
I understand that the child has certain rights too, but it loses only a life that hasn't begun yet. There's a difference between a woman that chooses to abort the fetus and one that kills a born child. A fetus may be alive, but it's still a life that is waiting for its start. It has no memories, no thoughts, it can't survive on its own. Technically "it" was already alive before it was formed, but that apparently can be ignored. Life is when it has those, conscience, and when it can lose those.
I also want to ask of you dedicated pro-lifers, who of you has the guts to actually tell a woman she may not choose what happens with her body. That it's her own fault that she "couldn't control her hormones" or "wore that mini-skirt". Or that it doesn't matter that the child will probably be born with a horrible disease or something. That life is solely "being" and not "being decently healthy". That quality is of no importance. Who of you thinks it's reasonable to stop the woman from aborting the fetus, whether by law, words or something else?
Because I would be prepared to fight* for her right to make the choice. Freedom is one of the most beautiful things one can have, and just because a woman is a woman, she should not be denied that right in such an important matter.
*note: This only goes for women who have had no more than two abortions. Because after that, it's obvious they haven't learned from their mistakes. I still think they have the right to choose, but they also should get help.
Okay, you have a point about the mother having a child by a rapist, so I'm not going to address that. But as for the woman willingly having sex, but doesn't want to have a baby, you should realize that most of the time the mother will go through with the pregnancy (key word: most). All of my AP Biology teacher's children were unplanned pregnancies, yet she didn't abort. I also believe that my siblings and I were unplanned, yet here we are. Now, my mom and my teacher were probably against abortion, but the fact remains that they still had their children. Sometimes the unplanned becomes wanted. I guess what I'm saying is that abortion is still the woman's choice, but even if the pregnancy is unplanned, there's still nothing wrong with givingn the child a chance.
No offense, LadyNintendo, but part of your logic seems flawed. "A fetus...can't survive on its own."? Well, neither can a newborn baby. It cries to call attention to its needs because it cannot get those needs by itself. Someone else must provide those needs, very much like a mother must provide a fetus's needs. Now, you'll probably say a baby will grow so that it can meet its needs by itself, but keep in mind that that baby was once a fetus, who wasn't able to survive on its own until given the chance to be born so it could grow and develop. So saying it's okay to abort a fetus because it can't survive on its own is like saying it's okay to kill a baby because it can't survive on its own. Given the chance to grow and develop, both can potentially survive by itself.
QuoteSo saying it's okay to abort a fetus because it can't survive on its own is like saying it's okay to kill a baby because it can't survive on its own. Given the chance to grow and develop, both can potentially survive by itself.
I don't think thats what she meant.
It has never lived it has no memories, it doesn't know anything. Its like taking sight away from a person who has been blind their whole life.
Of course I think it should have the chance to have a long happy life but if a women chooses to have an abortion, she is in no way murdering, or taking away its life.
But by aborting a child, you are destroying a life that is no longer your own. Just because you carry it doesnt mean you can decide wether or not it can live. It's no longer your life, its a new life and a new person. You shouldnt have the power to destroy it beacuse it's inside you and you never wanted it in the first place. Besides, if anything, give birth to the child and adopt it so it can have a chance to live.
And are you seriously saying its okay to kill the child because it hasn't had any excperiences in life? Because it has no memories, it's okay to abort it and destroy it?
Well feti are sentient beings, so I say let em live, even if they end up suffering more and making the world more overcrowded.
HnS - TwilightZelda is right, that's not what I meant. A fetus dies the moment it will be outside the womb. A baby can easily be left alone for awhile and will not die. A fetus only lives by the CONSTANT effort of its mother. A baby may need to be fed, kept warm and protected, but it lives on its own.
Just like a grown-up can live on its own, but needs food, warmth too and is also dependant of others to get those (society). However, a grown-up that lives only because machines keep him/her alive is comparable to a fetus. If he/she's in coma, there's hardly any difference anymore, since both don't have a conscience (yet/anymore). Is pulling the plug murder?
And about the first part, I'm pro-choice. CHOICE! Unplanned is not unwanted. Just because a child is unplanned, it doesn't mean the mother/parents don't want it. But it's her/their choice if they think it's "better" to not have the child, just as it is her/their choice if they decide they do want it. I don't care if most decide to have a baby (we're talking about unplanned here, and not unwanted, so it shouldn't even be an issue), the others cannot be denied their freedom because the majority makes a different choice. That's the same thing, the majority CHOOSES to have the child, while the others choose to not have it.
MK - True, but you can decide not to take care of it. Unfortunately, then it dies. But just like you can't force someone to give up one of their kidneys for a sick family member, you can't force the woman to take care of it. Abortion is not murder, but refusing to work hard/give up something to keep someone else alive. And no, it's not selfish. Suppose I would need a kidney, but my parents and siblings refuse to give me one of theirs. It would hurt, as it would be betrayal to all those years we've been together and known eachother. However, I cannot force them too, and I also won't blame them for anything, since their bodies are theirs. A fetus can't even be hurt in such a way. Suppose my parents wouldn't have wanted me and decided to abort me. I would have nothing to blame them for, because my mother has the right to decide what happens with her body. And I back then, was completely dependent of her, part of her body so to say. If she would've decided she didn't want me, then I wouldn't have known for I didn't had a conscience back then. And if theoreticaly I would get an afterlife conscience similar to what my conscience is now, I wouldn't....couldn't blame her for anything.
And no, have you read the other criteria? Conscience, ability to live on your own, thoughts. If it doesn't have that, yes then it's okay to kill it, because that's no life. Wait, what am I saying? It's not even killing, or you'll have to call breaking a rock, cd, vase etc. killing too. Maybe that's a little blunt, but life itself is worth nothing more than not-life. It's what is done with that life that makes it valuable.
I tend to side with abortion. A woman should have the choice whether to give birth or not. And it's not like the baby will feel or remember anything of it.
Some mothers need to go to therapy after some abortions, and you're telling me that it should still be okay?
Just because a child wont feel or remember it doesnt make it ok. if i shot a person in the leg but they couldnt feel or remember it, would it be okay? i dont think it would be. its the same concept.
"I am your creator. You were in my care even before you were born."
Isaiah, 44:2
Quote from: MCRFreak on November 01, 2006, 12:31:00 PM
You know, if you don't want to have a child because it hurts alot, don't worry! They're pills that make the pain go away, but it has a little sensation for when you need to push. And if it doesn't work, the nurse's will try to get you to look at something and try to get your mind off of how much it hurts.
or have it removed via c-section
You have any idea what C section is? Cut a woman's stomach open. who says it won't hurt?
it's called anesthetics
Well, they'd have to numb it up or something, or put the person under.
Quote from: MasterKey on November 04, 2006, 08:30:36 AM
Some mothers need to go to therapy after some abortions, and you're telling me that it should still be okay?
Just because a child wont feel or remember it doesnt make it ok. if i shot a person in the leg but they couldnt feel or remember it, would it be okay? i dont think it would be. its the same concept.
"I am your creator. You were in my care even before you were born."
Isaiah, 44:2
Shooting a person is completely different. The person knows life, has experienes, memories and has lived. A fetus is different as it really has no life to really take in the first place. And no offence, but backing up your view with points from the bible can't really support your argument. Especially since many people don't believe in God and therefore don't think he is their creator.
Also about c-section, even with anesthetics it is immensely painful, I know people who have had it and they were in a lot of pain afterwards.
As Lady Nintendo has said we are pro-CHOICE.
Of course I think EVERY thing should live and have a right to live but I strongly believe it is the mothers right to choose if she wants to do it.
well if the mother hurts afterwards she could take painkillers.
How all the religious people are arguing that abortion is a sin, I think it's not really any of their business. If they don't like it, then don't get an abortion! My same views on gay marriage.
Just beacuse your religious doesnt mean your automatically pro-life. I know some catholics who are pro-choice.
And i wasnt using the Bible to baxck up my statement. it was just a quote for you all to mull over. Even if you're an athiast, you can see why abortiuon is horrible. It's murder. Plain and simple. Just because it doesxnt have any experience or doesnt know anything doesnt mean its okay to kill it or abort it. It still has the RIGHT to live. And no, im not quoting or saying that from the Constitution. its a right everyone is born with, under the order of the World and God.
All this arguing over what I said?
Guys, the pill is if you can't take the pain. Or if you just don't want to feel the pain and all. They gave it to my mum twice. One for when she was having my bro and one for moi.
Yeah, and when my mom gave birth to my younger sister, they almost let her bleed to death. It's not about whether they can take away the pain, but whether the mother accepts to undergo to complete procedure.
TwilightZelda & Vaati, thank you for the support.
Masterkey - "its a right everyone is born with". Ain't I a meanie to quote you on that? Hehe, sorry. But abortion prevents that point from happening.
You see, if a mother needs therapy after abortion, then it was still her choice. Just like some mothers need therapy after giving birth. Don't tell me you're against abortion because the mother might need therapy (sorry if that sounded rude). At least here in the Netherlands, a woman, after requesting an abortion, gets two weeks to think about her decision. She gets information and whatever she wants after those two weeks, she really wants it and she accepts all consequences that come with her decision.
If you'd shoot a person in the leg (assuming with the intention to hurt him/her and kill if you're a lousy aimer), then that's already very different from abortion. Abortion is not intended to hurt or kill one, but to protect the other against something (for one, pain in many different forms).
"Even if you're an atheist, you can see why abortion is horrible. It's murder. Plain and simple."
I can see why it causes much debate and why I wish there was another, better solution. But it's not horrible. And it's also not plain and simple murder. Because the people that are pro-choice are not pro-murder, so it cannot be the same thing. Even the law shows the difference.
this is turning out to be a debate, hope Kakashi sees this
i love this debate, its the exchange of ideas. Good debating, LadyNintendo and TZ :)
Plus, what if they're, y'know, too young to have a baby, like 14 or something.
ya, i agree with vaati, TZ and LN. it should be the parents desision, but it would be better if the mother let the baby live...
Dont et me wrong, people. If the girl is raped or something, or in any other extreme situation, then that's diffrent. But if they accidently get pregnant, due to carelessness, then i say no abortion.
Well, if they did it out of carelessness I can see where you're going, but still, I think they should have the choice anyway.
But then we have a problem.
So you say, if we allow rape-victims to get an abortion, that's okay.
I agree.
You say accidental pregnancy should not be an okay reason for abortion.
I disagree, but that's not the problem I was talking about.
The problem is: Prove the girl was/wasn't raped. A girl can't always prove she was raped, and not always will the judge/jury agree it was rape. Also, not every girl wants to let the world know she was raped, or is scared because of threats from the rapist or knows her life will get very difficult if she would report it to the police. If rape, but not an accident, is an okay reason, you force the girl to go to the police, which might be very inconvenient for her for tons of reasons. So you can't always (more often than not, I guess) know if the girl is raped or lying. And then there's "semi-rape". The girl was not physically forced, but mentally. We've had a few of those cases here in the Netherlands a while back. The rapists did not even consider/were not capable of even considering it was rape.
So, even if you disagree, the woman should always be able to make the choice herself. Because you don't and cannot know the circumstances that caused the fetus to come into existance.
I agree with LadyNintendo for the same reasons. Except, I don't know much about what goes on in the Netherlands, because I don't live there, but I'm sure she knows more than I do about that.
Quote from: LadyNintendo on November 10, 2006, 08:18:10 AM
Prove the girl was/wasn't raped. A girl can't always prove she was raped, and not always will the judge/jury agree it was rape. Also, not every girl wants to let the world know she was raped, or is scared because of threats from the rapist or knows her life will get very difficult if she would report it to the police. If rape, but not an accident, is an okay reason, you force the girl to go to the police, which might be very inconvenient for her for tons of reasons. So you can't always (more often than not, I guess) know if the girl is raped or lying. And then there's "semi-rape". The girl was not physically forced, but mentally. We've had a few of those cases here in the Netherlands a while back. The rapists did not even consider/were not capable of even considering it was rape.
You know, that's a very good point about rape. The abortion situatiojn is very complicated. It just that, if the woman is fooling around and gets impregnated, abortion should be illegal in that situation. abortion shouldnt be used as a way of birth control.
I believe that even if the woman was just fooling around, I think she should still have the right to have an abortion. I mean, having a baby really changes alot. Then again, they could put the child up for adoption...
Exactly! hey may not want to have the chil though, but they should realize they're destroying the life of a defensless child.
Oh, and if anyone here wants, they can go to www.priestsforlife.org/images to view an abortion. Be warned its very graphic
I think I'll pass on that...
I just looked at all the pictures there, and I got to thinking about how these things are... Heh, They're all covered in blood. A quarter, even a dime is used for size comparision of just how small they are. But I think it misses the point completely.
Under the same thing, there could in fact be a miscarriage, and what then? The thing is would one be so full of adamancy as to guilt one into not making one's choice? A choice that only one can decide, no one else. Heh, I get to the irony that it's more about how one is able to think, able to be, make one's choices. It is still about women's choice, rather than the force of men. And to use scare tactics to prevent one from having choice, it is the closest thing to being without one's own voice. The closest thing to not being alive.
Understand, that it's about freedom, a thing that you may call overlooked. Even when the blood slits from my hands, it is about what I would do, rather than what others would take out of their loss of understanding.
I dont think it's really about the men having control, after all, 90% of the time, whether or not to have an abortion is a womens choice. If a man influences that, then thats wrong. It a womens choice, and i think that only under certain conditions should an abortion be allowed, and those conditions need to be VERY VERY EXTREME.
I'm not impressed. I saw a movie like that once before. Believe me, I've seen other kinds of operations that were meant to save people's lives that looked a lot worse. Does it matter?
And I already pointed out it's near impossible to have such a policy. That, or you'd be missing the whole point of why people want an abortion in the first place.
i side with pro-choice, I suppose. I do believe that the baby should live whenever possible but if there is a risk to the mother or if the mother is raped than the mother should have a choice to abort.
the website wasnt meant to sway opinion, i just posted it for you to see the HORRORS of abortion, which is clearly a crime.
Okay, for one, you just confessed that was your intention.
Second, don't use emotional opinions if you don't give proper arguments. You sound like this anti-abortion site I once visited. It didn't even seem to try to find arguments, just attempting to make you FEEL it was bad. I don't listen to my emotions when I judge something.
And I already said: Yes, it looks nasty, but so do most operations! If you cut someone open to give him a new heart, it gets bloody and messy. This is not different.
I'm gonna ignore that first sentence, cause it was a tad on the insulting side.
Anyway, it's different because you are destroying life, while any other operation is made to save life. Abortion is destruction, because it destroys the lives of innocent children.
Here's where I step back in the discussion: Fetuses aren't children. The decision that the parent makes influences the future. How can you go about something that doesn't even exist yet?
We could say the some thing about modern contraceptives. That they are equivalent to abortion, which isn't the case. I've heard news of the morning after pill getting stopped by the FDA because they believe it's 'abortion'. When in fact it has nothing to do with abortion. Sperm takes about twenty-four hours to reach the egg, the morning after pill simply stops that from happening.
We do not know the future because the future is rapidly changing. The only thing we can influence is the present, which leads to the future.
Well, I do think that fetuses are living begings, just not fully developed. But in a way I agree with you, they can't feel anything, they won't even remember it.