I'm not really sure about this, but I want to hear what everyone else thinks of the temple's location in TP. I'm not sure why or how it's there, assuming it's the same building from OoT.
The one thing I can think of is that it actually wasn't moved. Hyrule Castle was abandoned when Ganondorf took over in OoT, yes? The only building that remained unharmed was the Temple of Time. So suppose the Hylians and Hyruleans never went back to the castle after Ganon was defeated, and after enough time, a great forest grew up around it, which became the forest in the Faron Province of TP. Which would mean Hyrule Castle was rebuilt elsewhere after OoT.
It seems possible to me, but the problem is it would throw off the entire map alignment between OoT and TP. But I'm not ready to believe that the ToT was moved that far ...
So what do you guys think?
Well that is a possiblity but I think that it was just another entrence into the Temple of Time. You enter and it cuts to when you exit, that doesn't mean that it was an immediate enter/exit. It could have actually been a long while Link had to go till he exited and arrived at the Temple of Time. Just cause it was a cut scene doesn't mean it happened that fast in the game.
I don't think Hyrule castle Town was located there ever. It's current location is similar to that of OOT, so I tend tothink that if anything moved, it's the TOT. I don't have a real theory about it. It could be that the TOT has two entrances, but personally, I think they just relocated it.
What? It's possible. I don't think TP is only 100 years after OOT. It's just downright impossible and nothing in the game even hints at something like that. I go for 300 years, plenty of time to relocate it and abandon.
I think the Temple of Time was moved for safety reasons- people are always going to desire the Triforce (otherwise we wouldn't have any games, right?), and to have the door to the Sacred Realm, where the Triforce is, right in the middle of the biggest town in Hyrule... not a good idea. So it's moved to the most out of the way spot they can think of- the woods deep in Faron Province.
I just don't think Castle Town was abandoned, because that's a little more complicated then the Temple of Time just being relocated for whatever reason.
yeah, that was what I was thinking too. Or else, if (or rather, when) Ganondorf would escape from the Sacred Realm, the population of Hyrule Castle Town at least has a chance to prepare itself.
What do you think of the entrance to the temple? I think it is a time portal, taking Link back to a certain time, but in the exact same place. But it could be a location portal, the actual temple not being in the woods, but somewhere else that is entirely inaccessable without the portal. But I like the idea of a time portal.
TP is definately more than 100 years after OoT. I was thinking more like 500, but I can see 300, too.
I'm thinking now that the ToT was moved, because if it wasn't, everything else in Hyrule would have to be moved. None of the places in TP would be the same places from OoT. The temple was either moved, or rebuilt entirely.
I don't think it's a location portal. It's been pointed out elsewhere (I can't remember where at the moment; I'll dig it up tomorrow) that the door says "time door" on it in Hylian. Since we've got the door, guards, and Master Sword in the same area, the Temple of Time probably just fell apart. Too good of a hiding place, apparently.
I think I go for the time portal only thing. Also, the areas behind those two owl statues correspond to what you can see in the present, only minus the owl statues.
Only slightly related, what's up with Kakariko Village? If the hidden village is the true one, then was the one in OOT fake? Or have the Sheikah always had a second place to call home?
The Kakariko Village corresponds to the one from Ocarina of Time, being placed at the base of Death Mountain and all. That points to the Hidden Village maybe being a Sheikah hide-out. However, there's a billboard in the Hidden Village that says "Welcome to Old Kakariko". This could mean that there was originally one hidden Kakariko Village, filled with Sheikah, and then another one built so they could interact with the other races from somewhere a little less sinister then a hidden village- New Kakariko, but they didn't want people to find out about the Hidden Village, so it was merely Kakariko Village.
Yeah, but how about the Shadow Temple (where did it go anyway?) and the well then? They seemed to be pretty old and very Sheikah related in OOT. Why would they be located in a fake Kakariko?
Hmm... there's nothing really solid to go on, but I've got a few ideas. I don't think it's a "fake" Kakariko, like a cover Kakariko, but just a new Sheikah settlement (and they weren't very creative with names).
1.Old Kakariko was inhabited by Sheikah before The Great War. Afterwards (or even during), they move to New Kakariko in order to be more available to the Royal Family in case of flare-ups. Old Kakariko is entirely abandoned, save a few stubborn elders. A Shadow Temple and a well are constructed to imitate the Old Kakariko.
2. Old Kakariko was abandoned way before the Great War, for reasons even the Sheikah themselves have forgotten, for New Kakariko. While it retained the same name as the original village, it prospered as Old Kakariko could not, due to its hidden location. A Shadow Temple and a well are constructed for the first time in New Kakariko.
As for the Shadow Temple... I'm one of those people who could never get beyond the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time (shame on me, I know), but I think that the Shadow Temple is located at the very back of the graveyard. And at the back of the graveyard now is... the Royal Zora graveyard. It definitely looks like it was destroyed between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, but since temples aren't built in an area for no reason at all, they used the supposedly sacred ground for the Royal Zora graveyard.
I wonder if they can be destroyed. I mean, completely....the actual temple part and the corridors and rooms leading to it. And...what does that mean? They have been built for a reason, so what if they get destroyed.
Too bad I can't help you. I think the water temples are a piece of cake (it's ice I'm not that happy with. I wonder if I would've been able to complete the cancelled Ice Temple.) The entrance to the Shadow Temple is definetely destroyed, but that doesn't mean the rest is too. I'd be surprised if that'd be the case.
Hmm, that's right. I think at least the entrance was destroyed, in whatever way, and made room for the Zora graveyard, but the deeper rooms might be behind that, blocked off for whatever reason. Now, that would be an interesting dungeon- the Shadow Temple Ruins, accessible through a Zora grave, but you'd need a lot of bombs.
Heh, I've come to terms with my inability to defeat it! When I encountered the Lakebed Temple in Twilight Princess, I was terrified I'd get stuck there forever and never complete that game. Happily, that wasn't the case.
The Shadow Temple was probably destroyed, or just fell apart after so many years. The case is likely the same with the Temple of Time's dungeon area, because isn't it eight stories tall? It must've collapsed sometime before TP, because you can't see any of it.
Yeah, but the Temple of Time always exists as long as there's something left (in TP's case, that door). I wonder if that might also be the case with the other Temples, IF they get destroyed. I don't know, those things are built for a reason. We know that the Temple of Time probably will survive a lot more. We know that the desctruction of the Temple of Light would be very inconvenient. And I don't even want to know what happen if one of the Temples from the Sages who are responsible for the Master Sword would get destroyed.
So, what are the consequences if the other Temples would really be gone?
Therefore, I think the Temple parts still exist.
Was it not stated in the game, by Ooccoo I believe, that the Temple of Time was built by the Oocca? The Oocca are a very ancient race probably accounting for the Temple's ruined state in TP. So perhaps that Temple of Time was the original Temple of Time and another was built for whatever reason. Though that doesn't really explain why the Master Sword is there, or why you need it to access the temple...
...Unless it was originally there, moved to the Temple of Time 2, then moved back to the original ToT. Improbable, I know, but it's only a theory. :)
This of course only makes sense(kind of) if you assume the ToT in TP is not the same as the ToT in OoT, which is a fairly reasonable assumption to make considering they look nothing alike. Well, not really nothing alike, but they're clearly not the same Temple.
(First post! w00t w00t!)
Hmm. Interesting idea, Commander Axilon, that they're not the same temple. I myself think they are, but interesting nonetheless.
I don't recall that Ooccoo ever mentioning that, but no script or text dump is available for Twilight Princess right now, so I can't go and check. And they have their own sky city, so why build down in Hyrule? But that does bring up an interesting idea- the Oocca need a Temple of Time to house their relics, and the Hylians come up with the same idea to guard a way into the Sacred Realm. Some kind of connection, as the Oocca supposedly made the Hylians.
And hey, welcome! I'm fairly new myself.
She doesn't say the temple was built by the Oocca, but that the temple holds Ooccan technology, aka the Rod of Dominion.
Though I could be wrong ...
The DR's theirs, the ToT not.
I'd be somewhat surprised if the ToT was built by the Oocca. I don't even believe they built the City in the Sky. They may have created nice magic(al items), but that doesn't mean they can build proper buildings.
There is that part where they don't have thumbs...
LadyNintendo, I find that idea very interesting- I can certainly see them just inhabiting the (very nice) ruins of someone else's city. But that begs the question- who built the City in the Sky? Did the Ooccoo create the Dominion Rod themselves or merely enchant a rod they found? And how did the Dominion Rod find its way into the Temple of Time? I really need to go back and play through
Twilight Princess again, but I only recall Ooccoo saying it had been lost, and she did not elaborate on it.
Answered my own question. From
Alpha's latest post:
QuoteAccording to Sheikah legends, there is a tale of when the Oocca still kept in contact with the Hylian Royal Family. The Dominion Rod was given to the people, and was only to be carried by the messenger of the heavens when the Royal Family needed to communicate with the Oocca. The Sheikah have guarded a book that was to be given to the messenger, and Impaz is happy to finally fulfill her tribe's mission by granting you the Ancient Sky Book.
watch double posting Eralk. You can modify your post with the "modify" botton along the top of your post space.
That brings up something else. Were the Oocca still in contact with the Royal Family during OoT?
Well I could be wrong, but I vaguely recall something like that. I t could have just been the Dominion Rod though.
Tell me, Eralk Fang, why do you think the TP Temple of Time is the same as the OoT Temple of Time? The entrance looks a little similar yes, but there's the fact that the one in OoT wasn't eight stories tall. :)
And about the Oocca not having thumbs. Perhaps that's why they needed the Dominion Rod. They used statues to do all the building and what not. This is assuming of course that the Dominion Rod in the ToT isn't the only one.
A good theory you bring up about the Dominion Rod, Axilon.
But about the TP ToT not being OoT's ToT; why do you think the TP Hyrule is the same as the OoT Hyrule? The areas are named similarily yes, but there's the fact that the one in OoT wasn't as big.
The reason I think it's the same temple is because it has the same name, the Master Sword was there, and because the music from the entrance (not the dungeon area) is taken directly from OoT.
Why do you think that the area in OoT was the entire country of Hyrule? It's far too small and underpopulated to be a functioning kingdom. The Kingdom of Hyrule probably extends far beyond the in-game map, and this goes for virtually all the Zelda games.
And about the Temple of Time: The fact that one was eight stories high and the other wasn't doesn't say anything to you?
Edit: And music? Big whoop. The music in the TP Hyrule Castle is the same as the music from the TWW Hyrule Castle, which is the same as the music from the ALttP Hyrule Castle. And you're not gonna tell me they're all the same castle, are you? Music only means it's somewhat related, in this case: they're both named the Temple of Time, and they both hold the Master Sword.
Edit2: The Master Sword has been in a different place in every other Zelda game, what makes you think it's any different here?
And finally the name: many places have had the same name in the games. Let's see: Hyrule Castle, Death Mountain, Lon Lon Ranch, Zora's Domain, Hyrule Field, The Lost Woods, Ganon's Tower, Kakariko Village, etc., etc.. So I hardly see how that helps your point.
Touché.
And the music thing, my point was that those other ones are the same songs, but the ToT has the same, er, recording, if you will. Like, they made absolutely no changes to it. The other songs have instrument changes and such between each game, but the ToT music is exact.
I'm not sure why I was defending that point anyways, because it's not likely to be the same temple. A building like that couldn't be moved that far, even if the eight story part was built afterward. I guess I just liked the idea of it being the same place.
I believe it was rebuilt in the woods after Ganon was defeated in OoT.
And the music from Ganondorf's escape attempt from the Arbiter's Grounds in TP is exactly the same as the music from the collapse of Ganon's Tower in OoT. I don't mean the same song either, they were identical. And the only thing they had in common was Ganondorf doing...something...evil. So that doesn't help your point either.
And why should the ToT have had to have been rebuilt? It wasn't destroyed. :)
Since I think TP must have been at least 300 years after OoT, is that enough time for a giant building like that to completely fall apart?
I know, but that one was still updated ... The ToT music sounded to me like ... like they just copied the music file from an OoT rom and put it in TP, or something. I don't know ...
What happened to the old temple if wasn't torn down or destroyed?
Commander Axilon, the music in several of these examples has a purpose. In the castle music, it's to establish you are in the Royal Castle- no matter which one it is. However, there is no generic temple music to establish you are in a temple, no matter what temple it is. Each has their specific theme, usually established in Ocarina of Time. The Temple of Time's theme is very distinct, and I don't think it was even rearranged for Twilight Princess. While this really doesn't mean a thing in proving they are the same, most people's gut reaction when they enter Twilight Princess' Temple of Time is a memory of Ocarina of Time's Temple of Time, whether right or not.
But I had a thought on that. The Time Door doesn't have to take Link back to the time of Ocarina of Time. It could take him further back, to when it was first built, before the Link of Ocarina of Time visited it, or any time between the ending of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. At one point, it could have been eight stories tall, probably to show off the fact the Hylians had a portal to the Sacred Realm, and everybody else didn't, neener neener neener (and did we mention the mystical bird people are talking to us?). And then seven were knocked off at any point.
Quote from: Eralk Fang on January 14, 2007, 07:38:37 PM
The Temple of Time's theme is very distinct, and I don't think it was even rearranged for Twilight Princess. While this really doesn't mean a thing in proving they are the same, most people's gut reaction when they enter Twilight Princess' Temple of Time is a memory of Ocarina of Time's Temple of Time, whether right or not.
That's pretty much what I was
trying to say.
Hmmm ... I wonder how far back the door to the past sends you?
And what are those other ruins around the temple in the present?
Gwah ... so many questions ...
Quote from: Evahn on January 14, 2007, 06:51:27 PM
I know, but that one was still updated ... The ToT music sounded to me like ... like they just copied the music file from an OoT rom and put it in TP, or something. I don't know ...
No, it was the exact same music same as the ToT. Maybe they were just lazy and used the same music files, who knows? But it still doesn't prove they're the same temple.
Quote from: Evahn on January 14, 2007, 06:51:27 PM
What happened to the old temple if wasn't torn down or destroyed?
Uh, it's still there? :-*
Quote from: Eralk Fang on January 14, 2007, 07:38:37 PM
But I had a thought on that. The Time Door doesn't have to take Link back to the time of Ocarina of Time. It could take him further back, to when it was first built, before the Link of Ocarina of Time visited it, or any time between the ending of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. At one point, it could have been eight stories tall, probably to show off the fact the Hylians had a portal to the Sacred Realm, and everybody else didn't, neener neener neener (and did we mention the mystical bird people are talking to us?). And then seven were knocked off at any point.
You do realize that, though similar, the two Temples of Time are quite aesthetically different.
And you keep calling me Commander Axilon, it's
Commodore Axilon. Lower in rank, you see. :)
Quote from: Evahn on January 15, 2007, 11:25:01 AM
Quote from: Commodore Axilon on January 15, 2007, 10:47:54 AM
Uh, it's still there? :-*
In TP? Where?
I don't think the area in TP is the same as the area in OoT. It's probably off the map somewhere. And if my theory is correct, somewhere southwest of Ordona.
Oooh. So Gerudo Desert and Death Mountain are different deserts and different mountains in TP?
Quote from: Evahn on January 15, 2007, 11:33:07 AM
Oooh. So Gerudo Desert and Death Mountain are different deserts and different mountains in TP?
Did the Death Mountain in TP look anything like the Death mountain in OoT. It was like some big, weird, lava mound thing, not an actual mountain. And I'm not really sure about the deser t yet, but it's probably not.
Sorry, Commodore. I'll buy you a hat. A really big one.
I'm of the mind the areas are the same, due to the map, just expanded. Between Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess, more area is annexed by Hyrule and people move around.
On the temple: I'd really like to get my hands on shots of the temples from both games, in order to do a comparison. Ocarina of Time shots are plentiful, it's just Twilight Princess shots...
Then what's the deal with Zora's Domain. There's no place analogous to it south of Death Mountain, and the place called Zora's Domain in TP is way up north.
Right. Due to the time lapse between games, they could have migrated north and the old Domain was sealed behind a waterfall, if you recall. The Zora destroy the entrance for whatever reason, and now no one can enter it. That's a possibility.
How long do you think it's been between OoT and TP? Just trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from.
A couple centuries, at least, probably more around the 200-300 range then anything else.
Everything is in the right place but Zora's Domain, but we still have the river cutting right next to Kakariko.
Wait, I need a map to look at then I'll get back to you.
If you find a decent Twilight Princess map, link me to it! I need it.
Also, there is the Zora's graveyard behind the normal graveyard, and Kakariko was pretty close to Zora's Domain in OoT ...
EDIT
I should look at the TP map, because I'm not sure exactly where Zora's River goes, but I know it's somewhere in the Eldin Province.
Well, there's still the problem of the Temple of Time not being in the right place.
Evahn, the portal from Ocarina of Time that goes to Lake Hylia is also in the Zora graveyard, and I recall that being in the Lost Woods. Perhaps Kakariko sucked up some extra space in the back?
Commodore, I think the temple was just moved entirely.
The only portal to Lake Hylia was in Zora's Domain. And there need not be only one portal.
Ah. Wrong portal. But that makes more sense then the Lost Woods tunnel, if the Zora Graveyard is part of the old Domain. True, there could be another one.
Whoa, I'm not saying the Zora Graveyard is the old Domain (though it could be), I was just saying it is near where the old Domain was in OoT.
Speaking of Lake Hylia, why is it so much bigger than in OoT?
I'm saying that, Evahn. The portal is so similar (even comes out in the same area), that it could be plausible the old Domain becomes a graveyard.
Commodore, it's just gaming limitations are different now. And all manner of things could have happened in game. But the entrance from that cannon shop to Hyrule Field? Freakishly similar to Ocarina of Time.
Well, actually you have a good point on the warps, Eralk.
I'm not sure about the size of Lake Hylia. Lakes can grow over time, can't they?
I think they can, but the thing is, the level of the lake dropped pretty steeply, but it recovered, unlike the latter half of Ocarina of Time. So we have the waterfall up to the new Zora's Domain, and Lakebed Temple (if not the Water Temple, certainly in the general area) at the bottom of the lake.
It's just that things look way too different for me to believe they're the same places. I know about gaming limitations and what not, but it just irks me.
I can see that. So how do you work out the Temple of Time thing yourself, Commodore Axilon? I didn't gather too much about your theory from your previous posts.
Now I'm thinking it was moved. I can't really decide if it was moved or rebuilt, but there was nothing wrong with the old one, besides the location.
I think it was moved after Ocarina of Time to stop other attempts like Ganondorf's. But now I'm having second thoughts about the Time Door not being able to relocate Link, because if it took him back to the Temple of Time before Ocarina of Time... perhaps the Time Door isn't tied to location, but just to the Temple itself. If it's "set" to take someone back so many years, it takes you to the same temple, no matter where it is. So, hypothetically, if Link crashed in a window in the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess, we could end up with a huge time paradox on our hands. And who doesn't love time paradoxes?
How does the Time Door decide what time to send somebody to? Is it random? Is there some divine influence? Does it take you to what time you want to go to? Is it somehow set to a particular time? Or is it something completely different?
Theories, people!
Perhaps the Time Door judges on intent. Someone with malicious intent on the Triforce will not be sent to the time when the door to the Sacred Realm was open- rather, they would be transported to the time when the door was made, or another time when their intent could not be realized. By a similar token, benevolent intent is rewarded. The Link of Twilight Princess' intent was to get the Dominion Rod. Therefore, the Time Door took him to a time where he could get the Dominion Rod. A time when it was eight stories tall. Since it can judge intent, the Time Door probably has some divine influence, but it could be all exposure to a portal to the Sacred Realm, or the work of magicians.
I presume it is set to a certain time in the past. I don't think it would go past OoT's time, but really, it could be set to take you to anytime into the infinite past. So we don't really know.
The million dollar question is, of course: could it take you into the future?
So pretty much we have no idea to where or when it goes. Because, honestly, any of those ideas are entirely possible.
So for those of you who think that the OoT ToT and the TP ToT are one and the same, why was the Time Door added in the first place?
I really have no idea ... I'm not going to say anymore until I get to it again on my next play-through ...
I think the Time Door was either the original door of the original Temple of Time (Sacred Realm radiation?) and its function as time warp was unknown, or perhaps fashioned out of the original Door of Time (door to the Master Sword Chamber in Ocarina of Time), as a further security measure against people who would use the Triforce for wrong.
Quote from: Eralk Fang on January 15, 2007, 02:54:56 PM
I think the Time Door was either the original door of the original Temple of Time (Sacred Realm radiation?) and its function as time warp was unknown,
Sacred Realm...radiation? What?
Quote from: Eralk Fang on January 15, 2007, 02:54:56 PMor perhaps fashioned out of the original Door of Time (door to the Master Sword Chamber in Ocarina of Time), as a further security measure against people who would use the Triforce for wrong.
Then, if this was the original ToT, wouldn't pulling the Master Sword open the portal to the Sacred Realm (or Dark Realm as it was then)?
Joke. Perhaps just being in such a powerful place made a little stone door pretty powerful, is what I meant.
Hmm, good point. They could have changed it, but perhaps it was sealed off into further security measures? That's actually quite a nice argument for them being separate temples.
:-X Man its so confusing how they have to make a new map of Hyrule for every game, why can't they just stick to one to avoid geografical confusions like this.
Because that wouldn't be any fun. I might logically drive you crazy, but think about how fun it would be to play in the same area game after game.
Though I guess they could expand the maps from previous games. Like they did from TLoZ to AoL. Why don't they just do that?
It is possible, but then we wouldn't have Wind Waker. While sometimes a radically different map can be frustrating in theory building, I find it very interesting, allowing us to see Hyrule's borders (and the surrounding countries) throughout the games. And when one game is an expanded map (or seems to be) of a latter game, it's more interesting then if every game was just expanded off of the original Legend of Zelda.