This might be something someone has already said but I just saw the Triforce on the shield Link has in MM. So does that mean Termina is not another dimension or parallel world?
No, Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule. Link brought that shield through with him from Hyrule. Most Hylian shields have the Triforce on him, and the new Hylian design could be explained away as the shield being a gift from the Royal Family for saving Hyrule.
You can buy them from shops in MM though. I have no idea how to explain that.
Hylian shield smuggling ring? Heh.
The designers just didn't make a Terminan shield to sell in Terminan shops. Probably an oversight, but Termina's still a parallel world.
After all, not all Termian shops have to sell Termain products. When I go down to Maxwell Street downtown Chicago, lots of the booths that are set up mostly only sell stuff that's not from America.
Yes, but Termina being an alternate dimension makes that problematic, no?
It could just be coincidence. The Triforce could very well mean something else to the Terminians. Or, this (http://www.generation17.com/izc/forums/viewtopic.php?t=487) article from Ice's Zelda Central Forums could help explain the Triforce's presence in Termina.
Interesting theory. He makes a lot of assumptions, though.
I actually love that article. It's a very interesting theory.
Which is pretty much what any theory is. After all, look at Cell Theory. It assumes that all living things are made out of cells, but I haven't taken a slice of my skin and looked at it under a microscope, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm really made out of carpet. And looking in the dictionary, one of the definitions for theory is abstract though: spectulation. Another is a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation; an unproved assumption.
Some of it makes sense, but others are kind of out there.
Or it could be that the Triforce is just a popular symbol. Like for us, lots of countries use and eagles for symbols: Poland, Mexico, America, and England, too, I think.
I think the Triforce has a more religious connotation than it just being a symbol of Hyrule as a country. It, after all, is a symbol of the three goddesses. You could compare it to a Christian cross. It was very odd to find it in Termina, as they seem to have a different belief system all together. That's why I love the previously posted article; it deals with all of that very neatly.
Maybe the Ikana did believe in the three goddesses. But seeing as how they're long gone the religion just died out. Religions do die, you know. Look what happened to the Roman pantheon.
Everything doesn't have to be all exciting and dramatic, you know. :)
Quote from: Commodore Axilon on January 21, 2007, 09:25:28 AM
Maybe the Ikana did believe in the three goddesses. But seeing as how they're long gone the religion just died out. Religions do die, you know. Look what happened to the Roman pantheon.
Everything doesn't have to be all exciting and dramatic, you know. :)
Looks like someone needs to start writing lines:
"Everything in Zelda is a consipracy and must be exciting and dramatic.
Everything in Zelda is a consipracy and must be exciting and dramatic.
Everything in Zelda is a consipracy and must be exciting and dramatic...."
;D
We've seen religions decline in Zelda: in Wind Waker, goddess worship is at its lowest point. It is, of course, possible that Ikana were the goddess worshipers of Termina.
But the idea of Termina is being punished by the goddesses? That's just good clean fun.
The Terminians worships the Goddess of Time.
How do you figure that?
QuoteThe Goddess of Time is protecting you. If you play the Song of Time, she will aid you...
-Zelda
QuoteSomebody! Anybody!!! Goddess of Time, help us please! We need more time!
-Tatl
QuoteOnly a little more than two days left...Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me...
-Unknown
QuoteOnly a little more than one day left...Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me...
-Unknown
QuoteOnly a little time left...Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me...
-Unknown
Those are all the mentions of the Goddess of Time from
Majora's Mask. From Zelda's standpoint as a goddess worshipper, she could be referring to Nayru (as Goddess of Wisdom and Law, time could fall under her jurisdiction) or, from just education, she could be referring to the Goddess of Time, a completely Terminan deity all together. The presence of the Triforce in
Majora's Mask makes me think the former.
Tatl invokes the Goddess of Time after Link's flashback, and she prays to the Goddess of Time as a sort of last resort- perhaps the Goddess of Time is a dying deity in Termina?
I don't know who spoke the other three quotes, but they seem to be spoken by the same person.
If the Terminans worship the Goddess of Time, I think there is a minority of goddess worshippers in Termina.
QuoteAnd the people rejoiced and they worshiped the giants of the four worlds like gods.
-Granny
The majority of them seem to worship the Four Giants.
Off topic: I know this topic has been abandoned for ever, but I want to say my two cents on the matter.
In topic: Maybe, just maybe, Termina isn't a parallel dimension. I have a picture that I plan to upload to my computer later. It is a picture of my tv screen showing a scene in the game were a Goron stated something along the lines of "Dodogo's Cavern's best rock sirloin." I know you all are not idiots, but if you needed a reminder, Dodogo's Cavern is in Hyrule. Which must mean one of two things,
A) Termina is linked to Hyrule by land
B)Termina isn't liked to Hyrule by land, but it is liked to Hyrule by a portal that many people probably know about, because people bring rock sirloins through the portal.
Also, if you want to use the excuse that all of the characters look to people from Ocarina of Time, I say that that was just Nintendo being to lazy to make new character designs.
Now you might think, well, what about Dampe, Flat and Sharp. Well, here is my answer. Maybe Flat and Sharp composed for several royal families. Then you might ask why are they wondering around Ikana. Is the idea that spirits can roam where they choose good enough.
Now Dampe was the hardest to figure out. However, I eventually found a logical explanation. Perhaps, once young Link told Zelda about Ganadorf's plot, Ganadorf was arrested. Well, if that changed in the timeline, isn't it also logical that in this new timeline, Dampe decided to move out of Hyrule, and venture other lands. Perhaps he traveled to Termina, or maybe he fell though the portal. Either way, it is entirely logical.
If you propose a new idea to disprove mine, at least try to make sure that it would be easier to prove then mine. Because if yours would require more evidence that doesn't exist than mine does, than it is probably less likely to believe than mine. Thus, if you are only trying to make a theory to topple mine, you might not want to waste time posting it unless it is more feasible than mine, as I said. I am not discouraging you from posting, but I don't want you to end up wasting your time.
Quote from: Orpheousanew2nd on July 30, 2007, 09:17:14 PM
Off topic: I know this topic has been abandoned for ever, but I want to say my two cents on the matter.
In topic: Maybe, just maybe, Termina isn't a parallel dimension. I have a picture that I plan to upload to my computer later. It is a picture of my tv screen showing a scene in the game were a Goron stated something along the lines of "Dodogo's Cavern's best rock sirloin." I know you all are not idiots, but if you needed a reminder, Dodogo's Cavern is in Hyrule. Which must mean one of two things,
A) Termina is linked to Hyrule by land
B)Termina isn't liked to Hyrule by land, but it is liked to Hyrule by a portal that many people probably know about, because people bring rock sirloins through the portal.
Or maybe, just maybe, there's a place in Termina also called Dodongo's Cavern. Radical, isn't it? (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/Commodore_Axilon/Forum%20Crap/linkrolleyes.gif)
QuoteAlso, if you want to use the excuse that all of the characters look to people from Ocarina of Time, I say that that was just Nintendo being to lazy to make new character designs.
First of all, I'm pretty sure it wasn't. And second of all, so what if it was? It's still there in the game. It's still part of it. You can't just magick away the fact that all these characters look identical to their OoT counterparts. So until we get a definitive statement from Nintendo saying that they reused the character models from OoT out of laziness/time constraints/etc./etc., Suspension of Disbelief doesn't allow it.
QuoteIf you propose a new idea to disprove mine, at least try to make sure that it would be easier to prove then mine. Because if yours would require more evidence that doesn't exist than mine does, than it is probably less likely to believe than mine. Thus, if you are only trying to make a theory to topple mine, you might not want to waste time posting it unless it is more feasible than mine, as I said. I am not discouraging you from posting, but I don't want you to end up wasting your time.
Yeah, don't flatter yourself, kid.
Yours is the one that is more complicated and requires more evidence, ergo Occam's Razor favors mine.
I find it more more unlikely that there is a place in Termina called Dodongo's Cavern. I mean, none of the other places from Termina share the same name as places from OoT. So, why should there be a place in Termina called Dodongo's Cavern? Ok, maybe the character designs being the same wasn't from any lame excuse, but still, just because they look the same doesn't mean it is a parallel dimension. I think somebody had a theory that maybe, they admired people in Hyrule fashions.
Which would explain the same clothes. The theory that Termina isn't a parallel dimension would also explain the Hylian Shield. Of course, people in Termina, or at least Ikana, knew of the Triforce. Which means that they believe in it's power. After all, when the Stone Tower is inverted, the blocks that lead to the entrance of the dungeon have the Triforce on them. They must know of the legend of the Triforce as well. However, lasted time I checked, the Triforce was a legend that was passed down through Hyrule, and that it is kept in the Sacred Realm. Thus, there is almost no way that Termina is a parallel dimension.
Quote from: Orpheousanew2nd on July 31, 2007, 09:46:29 AM
I find it more more unlikely that there is a place in Termina called Dodongo's Cavern. I mean, none of the other places from Termina share the same name as places from OoT. So, why should there be a place in Termina called Dodongo's Cavern?
Who is to say that Link visited all of the places in Termina while he was there? How do you know that there wasn't another town that he didn't visit? Hey, for all we know, Dodongo's Cavern could be on an unreachable ledge in Great Bay or high up in the mountains of Snowhead.
I agree with you completely. However, if there was a place called Dodongos' Cavern somewhere in Termina, don't you find it likely that other places would share Hyrulian names, and that Link was bound to run into one of those places in his quest. However, it is possible that Hyrule is linked to Termina through Dodongo's Cavern as well. After all, Termina could sit to the north of OoT Hyrule, and Dodongo's Cavern is somewhere in the swamps. But that would prove that they are linked by land.
Quote from: Orpheousanew2nd on July 31, 2007, 09:46:29 AM
I find it more more unlikely that there is a place in Termina called Dodongo's Cavern. I mean, none of the other places from Termina share the same name as places from OoT. So, why should there be a place in Termina called Dodongo's Cavern?
Because there are dodongos in Termina? Because dodongos like to live in caves? It doesn't seem like it'd be that unlikely a name.
QuoteOk, maybe the character designs being the same wasn't from any lame excuse, but still, just because they look the same doesn't mean it is a parallel dimension. I think somebody had a theory that maybe, they admired people in Hyrule fashions.
And they all had plastic surgery to look just like random people in Hyrule?
QuoteWhich would explain the same clothes. The theory that Termina isn't a parallel dimension would also explain the Hylian Shield. Of course, people in Termina, or at least Ikana, knew of the Triforce. Which means that they believe in it's power. After all, when the Stone Tower is inverted, the blocks that lead to the entrance of the dungeon have the Triforce on them. They must know of the legend of the Triforce as well. However, lasted time I checked, the Triforce was a legend that was passed down through Hyrule, and that it is kept in the Sacred Realm. Thus, there is almost no way that Termina is a parallel dimension.
Linka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triforce#Other_media_that_use_symbols_similar_to_the_triforce)
It's not that uncommon a symbol. Three equilateral triangles arranged in way as to form another equilateral triangle wouldn't be that hard to come across. It could mean many different spiritual, political, social, etc.
ad nauseum things.
I give up. I am not scratching my theory, but it isn't worth constantly defending. I am still keeping it. Wait, what proof do you have that makes it a parallel dimension? Anyone?
What proof do you have that it isn't? (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/Commodore_Axilon/Forum%20Crap/stupid.gif)
But seriously, I suppose you have a reasonable explanation as to the resident's looking virtually identical?
I had a reasonable explanation, Nintendo decided not to make new character design. How can you disprove that they didn't?
And how does that excuse them from being virtually identical from an in-universe perspective? Like I said, they still look that way no matter what. Does it really matter why they look that way?
If you had an identical twin sibling, does that mean that you one of you is from a parallel world. I am not saying that each person in Majora's Mask is an identical twin, but just because they look the same as other people doesn't make it a parallel universe. And yes, it does matter why they look that way.
*sighs* Care to explain then how you'd have an identical you running around without some freaky "Mirror, Mirror" parallel universe stuff going on then? For some reason I think mass cloning is out of the question.
Well, did you ever know that they had a show were they found people who looked exactly like somebody else, but their not blood related. So, I maybe that explains it. The non-blood related identical twin theory.
Quote from: Orpheousanew2nd on July 31, 2007, 12:10:00 PM
If you had an identical twin sibling, does that mean that you one of you is from a parallel world. I am not saying that each person in Majora's Mask is an identical twin, but just because they look the same as other people doesn't make it a parallel universe.
Then it was all just one big coincidence that there were many people in Termina that looked exactly the same as people in Hyrule?
And the thing you're describing (the Non-Blood-Related Identical Twin Theory) sounds like you're describing dopplegängers. It's not like they're exactly COMMON...
You nailed it...it is all coincidence. I am sick of arguing my case with you stubborn people. It is the fact that from the beginning you believed it was a parallel world that threw you all off. After time, you began to depend upon it. Now, you assume it is one hundred percent fact. That is what time does.
Woohoo! Thank god the arguing is over, now begins the name calling and strawmanning!
The fact that you think they all look the same out of sheer coincidence speaks bounds about you, really.
*bashes his head though a chunk of wood*
This is hopeless. Here, let me ask this....
"If Termina was a parallel dimension of Hyrule, than what ever exists in one exists in the other, that is pretty much was a parallel dimension is, then how come there is no Majora's Mask in Hyrule? If you say it is because he does exist there but we never meet him, well, I think we would have at least heard of him. Also, the Happy Mask Salesmen states that he has traveled many lands, which raises the likely hood that he came from Hyrule."
It IS possible that the Triforce does-- in some shape and form-- exist in Termina, or has at least previously existed there. Check out my theory on the Stone Tower for more detail, but basically, what is Terminans got jealous because the Hyruleans, their interdimensional cousins, got the Triforce's blessing instead of them, and so they blasphemed and mocked them by making it seem as though they had equal share to the Triforce? I mean, if the dimensional portal is in the Clock Tower, chances are several people would've found it. That's not too amazing of a hiding spot, as far as I'm concerned...
Oh, and it's nice to see another ZUer here, Eralk Fang.
*to Orpheous*
I believe there was no Majora's Mask in Termina before the events in MM. If you recall, the Happy Mask Salesman got it stolen from him by the Skull Kid in the Lost Woods. Sure, the Lost Woods are probably a connection between Hyrule and Termina, but that doesn't mean the Happy Mask Salesman got Majora's Mask from Termina, or even Hyrule for that matter. Skull Kid just brought Majora's Mask to Termina and began the game's events, from what I see.
Besides, Majora's Mask was sealed away to prevent people misusing its power. The HMS probably obtained it by breaking open the seal and getting it or finding it by other means. For all we know, he got it from the Dark World! We just don't know; thus, we can't say for sure where Majora's Mask came from, even if there are pictures of it in Termina and not Hyrule.
Moreover, not ALL properties of two objects have to be alike for them to be parallel. They just need correspondence, and it turns out that it's the characters' similarities that make the two worlds correspondent.
Anyway, what I'm saying is, we believing that Termina is parallel to Hyrule is just as feasible as you believing that it's not. There's nothing wrong with your theory, but you seem to be doing the same thing that you say we're doing by assuming yourself that your own theory is one hundred percent fact. No offense, but that's kind of hypocritical of you to say so.
Scratch that last part; I may be coming on too strong and accusing. Sorry about that.
It's ok, I guess I just want a on hundred percent answer on what Termina was, so I guess my own theory kinda became my fact in my mind. I totally needed to be brought back to reality. I wish Nintendo would just come out and say the one hundred perfect truth, but even they probably don't know.
Quote from: Hi no Seijin on January 20, 2007, 09:54:21 AM
It could just be coincidence. The Triforce could very well mean something else to the Terminians. Or, this (http://www.generation17.com/izc/forums/viewtopic.php?t=487) article from Ice's Zelda Central Forums could help explain the Triforce's presence in Termina.
Man, I've been looking for that article for the longest time ever. Thanks!
People seem to be doing the same thing in a different way. The Gerudo are still female only, and they still steal stuff, as they are pirates.
Oh, for your "same place" thingie, theres the Lost Woods. Just thought I'd tell you.
Quote from: Orpheousanew2nd on July 31, 2007, 07:44:29 PM
It's ok, I guess I just want a on hundred percent answer on what Termina was, so I guess my own theory kinda became my fact in my mind. I totally needed to be brought back to reality. I wish Nintendo would just come out and say the one hundred perfect truth, but even they probably don't know.
If they did that though, it would limit possibilities for future game ideas.
Seeing how lands never get reused except for Hyrule, I don't think it would do that much.
QuoteIf you propose a new idea to disprove mine, at least try to make sure that it would be easier to prove then mine. Because if yours would require more evidence that doesn't exist than mine does, than it is probably less likely to believe than mine. Thus, if you are only trying to make a theory to topple mine, you might not want to waste time posting it unless it is more feasible than mine, as I said. I am not discouraging you from posting, but I don't want you to end up wasting your time.
And
BOOM it did.
;D You really put a lot of mines in that text.
Back on topic and back to the parallel issue. I don't think Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule, but I also don't think it's in the same dimension. My problem with the parallel issue is that Termina doesn't look like Hyrule at all and clearly was designed to be different. If you compare the two maps, you'll see that Nintendo has done its very best to come up with new environments (ones not in OOT) for MM, while still keeping things logical and diverse. Swamp, Mountain, Ocean and Canyon; none of these evironments can be found in OOT's Hyrule. The layout of Termina is completely different. As for the Terminans, I don't think they "can be" similar; they may appear similar to us, but most likely not to themselves. Remember Romani and Cremia? Well, we agree Romani is supposed to look young Malon and Cremia like older Malon. Just a question: how freaked out would you be if your younger brother/sister would look EXACTLY like you when you were his/her age? Or how freaked out would you be if you'd look in the mirror everyday just to discover you look like your big bro/sis again? I doubt that is the case for them, meaning that there are differences between their appearances, meaning they aren't Malon's döppelgangers.
Snowhead was like Death Mountain, just, uh, snowy,
The mountain in the swamp looked a lot like Death Mountain, just diffrent colors.
So? A jungle and, say, a forest in France both have a lot of trees and animals, but are significantly different. Death Mountain is a volcano, Snowhead clearly is not.
Death MOUNTAIN. it's a comparison between MOUNTAINS. We never saw all of Snowhead, so we don't know if a valcanoe is there, maybe furher norht than the dungeon.
There are mountains in lots of places.
The Rockies in Canada... well, it's cold and your generic mountain.
The Andes in Chile are warmer and much different.
Just because Death Mountain and Snowhead are mountains, doesn't mean they're both the same... or even similar. Death Mountain is a desolate place, full of rocks and lava. Snowhead has grass, a mild climate, etc.
But they ARE both suitable places for Gorons to live, apparently. There's a similarity there...
Anyway, it is possible that Snowhead may be a volcano, or at least have a volcano in the vicinity. Remember the hot springs around there? Magma is what heats the water up, so magma has to be near the surface of the earth. A volcano would be possible, thus.
Quote
while still keeping things logical and diverse.
That is what I said. If Nintendo wanted to reuse OOT's models, they had to give the different races suitable homes. Gorons live in rocky areas; what other environment Nintendo could have created to let the Gorons live than Snowhead? It IS signifcantly different from the volcanic, hostile Death Mountain. Just like an ocean is very different from a lake and a swamp is very different from a forest, even though there are similarities.
I'd also like to point out that most of the water in Snowhead is not warm and that in most cases, hot springs caused by volcanos are WAY to warm to survive standing in. It is possible, but very unlikely that a volcano is the cause for the Snowhead's hot spring.
What about the hot springs of Japanese mountains? I hear that they too, can also have Snowhead's general appearance.
What about seasons, though? Maybe it's Winter at Snowhead and Summer at Death Mountain...
It's called Snowhead, right? I think that says something about the most common temperature. I'm not entirely sure, but several parts of Snowhead stayed snowy, right?
And even apart from the snow, Snowhead's climate is more friendly than Death Mountain, even when it's summer/spring.
Can semi-active volcano's be covered in snow?
I THINK they can... Japan might have them. Though I'm not 100% sure.
As long as the snow's not exposed to the magma from the volcano, probably. But the heat from the hot springs had to come from somewhere, so there has to be some kind of activity in the crust that heats the water up. It doesn't necessarily have to be a volcano, per se, but anywhere where the heat from magma can rise up from under the crust and heat the water.
Snowhead Temple has lava on the basement level if I remember correctly.
Quote from: Peka on December 06, 2007, 02:04:12 PM
Snowhead Temple has lava on the basement level if I remember correctly.
Touché, Salesman.
Quote from: LadyNintendo on August 05, 2007, 02:38:19 AM
Death Mountain is a volcano, Snowhead clearly is not.
Well, you are right and wrong. It is not a volcano. However, it has a hot spring, so Snowhead is defenantly over a geothermal hotspot. Technically, it could become a volcano if the magma were to burst through the crust.
Maybe my geology classes actually
do have a purpose.
Quote from: LadyNintendo on August 06, 2007, 10:21:20 PM
It's called Snowhead, right? I think that says something about the most common temperature. I'm not entirely sure, but several parts of Snowhead stayed snowy, right?
And even apart from the snow, Snowhead's climate is more friendly than Death Mountain, even when it's summer/spring.
Can semi-active volcano's be covered in snow?
Yeah, they actually say there is a coldsnap there. But that doesn't mean that there isn't normally snow there. I mean, Snowhead must have gotten it's name somehow.
I'd like to think that termina's just an island or a country over the seas near hyrule, close enough to trade with. but, since i've never played MM, there might be some things to disprove this theory. :-\
I don't think it'd really be an island, per se. From what the map shows, there may be land on the other side of the mountains.
But on the other hand, we don't know exactly where Termina is, so that could be your supporting argument. No one knows, but going with something works better than going with nothing.
And welcome to TDC, by the way. Great to have you. :)