Well, two things to prove it:
A) In MM, the Goddess of Time was mentioned a few times.
B) In TWW, Zephos (the green frog on a cloud) is called THE GOD OF WIND! By extention, his brother (the pink frog) is at least a high deity.
I always assumed the three goddesses were the higher creator deities analogous to Yahweh/Allah, and there being a pantheon of lesser deities (e.g. Zephos, Cyclos, Goddess of Time) analogous to the Roman/Hindu/Egyptian pantheon.
I've heard of Allah, but who's Yahweh?
I'm sure there are equal god(desse)s to Farore, Din, and Nayru, we jsut haven't seen them.
QuoteI've heard of Allah, but who's Yahweh?
Jehovah. The Christian/Jewish god.
Oh. I'm not religious, so that's probably why. And the fact that a large amount of Christians have forgotten what the name was.
Still, there are probably god(desse)s equal to the main three in the series.
Also:
C) TWW dungeon called Tower of the GODS.
Just because it says 'god' doesn't mean that it is a strictly male connotation. If the Tower of the Gods were meant to present other deities, then what evidence is there that it refers to other deities?
Heheh...The thing is that we have yet to see anything in the zelda series that acts as an equivolant to Nayru, Din, or Farore. And the way I always thought it, the Goddess of time was the Goddess of courage, Nayru.
ever heard of the term 'demi-god'? It means something like an elemental spirit, but something that has power over only a little bit, as opposed to the dominance of the trinity.
And the Four Giants do not count, because they are of Termina, not of Hyrule.
A. General consensus makes the Goddess of Time Nayru. Nayru created the laws of the universe; time would certainly be one of them.
B. What Commodore Axilon said.
C. Gods can refer to the entire pantheon, the supreme three (The Golden Goddesses) and the various sundry other lower deities.
I think Majora was once a goddess. That would explain people worshipping her and her mask.
Plus there are several references to the Sand Goddess.
People worshiped Majora? I think she was feared more than anything... and why would she only be found in Termina, and promptly killed by a chosen of Farore's?
I think the Sand Goddess is Din; she created the earth, hence such a connection.
>_> Do you see the statues, I don't think thats what Din looks like.
And umm, that was Majora's Mask. I think there was a thing where a tribe in Termina worshipped Majora. There are symbols of the Triforce in the 4th dungeon in MM. So why shouldn't the Goddesses be interdemensional.
Yep.
By Gods, I meant Gods AND Goddesses.
If these are the same Goddesses, then surely they'd have the same names.
People did worship Majora. But it could have been a tribal thing. It mgith not have even been a god, just a powerful object similar to the gods.
The manga says Fierce Deity Link is a god.
Bboy94, the only other visual representation of Din is a giant golden woman. It's not so far-fetched to think that the Gerudo thought of Din along the lines of a Gerudo woman; the Judeo-Christian God is along the lines of an old, Caucasian man. The innermost statue of Din has a Triforce and wears a massive ruby; Triforce for the Goddesses, red is Din's color.
A tribe used the mask in rituals. It never stated anything about worship.
Kannochi, the manga is not canon; it openly contradicts the games at several points.
And the same god can have different names. I direct you to the Roman goddess Juno, known to the Greeks as Hera. And the God of Judaism is the same God as Christianity and Islam, per their own holy books. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic God is known as God, Allah, and Yahweh.
I know that all. The Romans BOTH had a different language AND wanted to seem superior to Greece. The other one is a true fact. In fact, Hercules is really Heracles, Jupiter is Zeus and got named that because they thought lightning was on it, and every other planet besides Earth is the Roman name for a Greek God.
Irronic how they worship the same god and fight each other on end, isn't it? It's also sad.
Still, this all serves as proof.
The Roman goddess of the earth is Tellus. Her Greek name is Gaea.
It doesn't matter the language difference. They were referring to the same gods and goddesses, albeit in a different tongue and with different names. So it's perfectly plausible that Din and Nayru are known by different names.
Well, actually, we know no names for Sand and Time, they are jsut stated as goddesses. These could be different ones; or two gods in the same figure, like how Poseidon was god of both Sea, Earthquakes, and Horses.
Din created the earth; therefore, she created sand. Nayru created the laws of the universe; therefore, she created time.
The Golden Goddesses do a fine job of covering all their bases. I hate to invoke Occam's Razor for theories, but seriously; why have a goddess of sand when one of the Golden Goddesses can clearly be such a goddess?
Because its not what the believe. Thats like saying why odn't we all worship Jesus, its because thats not what some people believe. Nayru could be the goddess of time. Din could be the goddess of sand. But that doesn't mean they are. You are saying why have more than three goddesses, well why not?
Why would their be a seperate Goddess (highest power in all of Hyrule) for some dumb ol sand? Also, Nayru is almost inarguably the Goddess of Time, because she was the Oracle in OoA, which consisted of TIME traveling.....
Except the oracle is not the goddess.
And just because there'd be a goddess doesn't mean they'd be just as powerful as the three golden goddesses. I don't see why everyone assumes just because it's "Goddess of Time" that it has to be of the same caliber as Din, Nayru, or Farore (or have anything to do with them). There could be lower goddesses same as lower gods.
The thing though, there is no canon evidence of there being other high goddesses.
I use Artistic License. This attack allows me to say Nayru is also the Goddess of Time if it suits my story. If it doesn't suit my story, then I can make the Goddess of Time a different entity from Nayru.
Quote from: JQ Pickwick on March 20, 2007, 02:53:24 PM
...And the way I always thought it, the Goddess of time was the Goddess of courage, Nayru....
Also, the last time I checked, Nayru was the Goddess of Wisdom. Although, I may be wrong, or Nintendo may switch up the goddesses on us just to be evil.
Quote from: JQ Pickwick on March 22, 2007, 04:45:08 PM
The thing though, there is no canon evidence of there being other high goddesses.
That's why I said
lower goddess. Keep up, old chap.
D'oh, I got confused... Nayru is the goddess of wisdom. The reason why I got confused is because my memory messed up and thought that Oracle of Ages was originally meant to be called 'the tale of courage'... And so on with the other game (seasons) being the tale of power.
Oh well...
QuoteThe Golden Goddesses do a fine job of covering all their bases. I hate to invoke Occam's Razor for theories, but seriously; why have a goddess of sand when one of the Golden Goddesses can clearly be such a goddess?
I personally believethat the Goddess of Sand is Din, but there can be twisted gods. Y'know, gods that poison the Creation. Like when Din created and formed the earth her divine opponent poisoned the lands and made deserts, marshlands and volcanoes.
Although, on the other hand, if the Goddess of Sand is a different goddess she's more likely the opponent of Farore.
QuoteExcept the oracle is not the goddess.
You don't know that.
There it is again. Why do people assume, just because it's a goddess, that it has
anything to do with the Golden Goddesses?
QuoteYou don't know that.
It was my understanding that the three goddesses
left after creating Hyrule. At least that's how it was told in OoT.
And in TP, LTTP, and TWW! ;D
QuoteThe Golden Goddesses do a fine job of covering all their bases. I hate to invoke Occam's Razor for theories, but seriously; why have a goddess of sand when one of the Golden Goddesses can clearly be such a goddess?
This can just be a minor god that is an underling to a higher god (possibly a Golden Goddess) that is in charge of deserts and sand while the higher deity is in charge of the more higher aspects of what Sand is catagorized in. (Earth, mabye)
But you have no proof that there are other Goddesses.
Quote from: JQ Pickwick on March 28, 2007, 12:27:28 PM
But you have no proof that there are other Goddesses.
So the default position is to assume it's one of the Golden Goddesses? I don't see why this should be the case, considering we've seen other gods before. I guess the fact that everyone seems to bum rush to the idea of any goddess being a Golden Goddess doesn't make sense to me, seeing as how it never even entered my mind before.
And P.S. There's no proof that there
aren't other goddesses either. :D
Wouldn't this apply to Hyrulians to? I mean, if you lived in the desert, you would pray to the Goddess of Sand, because its the ground you live on.I personally believe that there is a higher power(s) we can't possibly perceive, at work in the universe. I would make up I name, but that wouldn't make much sense because its imperceivable. We all have different beliefs, so wouldn't the Zora's, Goron's, Deku's, and Hylians?
I didn't mean for those questions to be taken realistically, but also to point out a few things indirectly. There could even be a bunch of different religions outside Hyrule that have many different god(desse)s that created the Triforce.
Also, I'm a big history buff, and that actually insulted me a little. :'(
If I insult anyone, it's not intentional, really. I do NOT say I know the reason everythnig exists, that's a complete lie, because I think that there is no true purpose for anything.
This is becoming debgateful, let's move it to PM.
And how did this turn into this big religious discussion?
I randomly thought of several questions that were indirectly used to imply they could be more than one religion in Hyrule's World, like how there's 5 main religions in our wolrd (Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judeasm) and several smaller religions. (Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto)
Kannochi, that was an abuse of mod powerrs, my post had EVERYTHING to do with the topic, since your the one that introduced religion. There was nothing offensive about that post. So you really had no reason to delete except for your own biases and opinions.
I was about to delete mine too you know. :-* (I had other stuff to do, such as write the next chapter down for my story on Microsoft Word and eat dinner.) Yours was actually the first post SOLEY on religion.
Are you mad because I told you about how you shouldn't assume that you know everything? Mad because I told you how my brother told me that there are people smarter than oneself?
Don't lie, Kannochi, the post wasn't completely about religion. I even mentioned something about Mesopotomian culture along the lines of "The Code of Hammarabi" and "The Tale of Gilgamesh".
I'd like to see your evidence for the claims you make.
YOu even deleted the post where I answered YOUR questions about the religions. That is a VERY bad abuse of mod powers, when I was actually trying to direct points on your conceptions on Religion.
Actually, I'm a tough person to anger. It'll take a while before I get ticked off. (which is something that really annoys other people, who get angry quite quickly)
Wait, I thought those codes WERE religion. (I may be a history buff, but actually, I find this part of history rather boring) :-*
Actually, I pretty much removed everything that delt with the religion thing, look around the whole topic.
QuoteMad because I told you how my brother told me that there are people smarter than oneself?
I don't understand how that could get me angry, seeing as I don't know your brother, or why someone telling you (pronoun for JQ Pickwick in this case) you're not the smartest person in the world too.
I don't know everything, either. Personally, I rather NOT want to know everything. Knowing everything is a physical impossibility because of the loss of information through time and the unimportance of most events in history. And by knowing anything, I'd have to be bothered by everyone, who'd want to know other things they don't. And the only way it is possible for someone to know everything is through the loss of emotion, which would create a wall that would block you from this goal.
Well, just because you find them boring is still no excuse to delete posts that were ACTUALLY contributing to the discussion.
The Code of Hamarabi deals with LAW, not with religion.
The Tale of Gilgamesh is an epic that shows details of the Mesopotomian culture. That they are 'religious' (In your opinion) is beside the point.
And you pretty much insulted all the christians here when you said that they've forgotten the name of God. Do not assume something when you, yourself cannot vouch for it, and openly deny knowledge related to it.
And just so you know, I'm an atheist, but I am not an ignorant person whom disreguards the point of religion relating to philosophy and history.
And you know something I've seen in a lot of the topics made by you? I see that you keep putting forth things and people ask you for evidence, but you really don't give any evidence. You even go to the point where you assume that YOU are the one who speaks for people's opinions. Things like the Global Warming topic, this topic, and the american idol topic. Just because YOU believe it, doesn't mean that everyone else believes it. And quite frankly, I'm tired of your attempts at obscuring other people's opinions when they are simply trying to contribute to the discussion.
Actually, I said most. (I once even asked my grandparents, and they didn't know, either)
And the fact I thought that they were religion was because I had no idea what the ywere and thought, since it was brought up during this discussion, it was Mesopoatmian religon.
Alright, let me just say something here. I have recieved a few complaints about power abuse. Kannochi, I think you're handeling this the right way, all except for the fact that you deleted posts that have clear contribution to the discussion at hand. I would have already been angry, but I like to view both sides of the issue and come to a sensible solution. I agree with JQ that you didn't leave any notification that you deleted posts, and you should really let it be known why you deleted said post, and when. I also agree with that fact that you're handeling this in a calm manner. It was a good theory, and could use some research, but until more evidence is provided, there is nothing we can say for sure. Thats all I have time to say for now, I'm on a strict time budget. Thanks.
And with that, I say we get back on topic, and maybe let this go to rest, or at least into PMs.
QuoteIt was my understanding that the three goddesses left after creating Hyrule. At least that's how it was told in OoT.
1. It's a legend.
2. The 'Creation' legend has already been contradicted, so why not this one too?
3. We don't know how long they remained before they left. The Deku Tree says that they left after their labours had been completed, but do we know that's immediately after the supposed Creation? By his use of words it may seem like it's immediately afterwards, but again, it's a legend.
4. They may have later descended to 'Hyrule' in mortal forms. Jesus, anyone?
I don't believe the Oracles are the Goddesses, but I'm open for the possibility.
Very good points, Evilslayer. Yes, I think it would make sense for the Oracles to be the Jesuses of the Goddesses...
It can't be disputed that there are other gods sheerly on the virtue of the gods of wind in WW. Though i think anyone would agree that the gods of wind in particular arn't of the same calibre as godesses that can create entire worlds (i think you have to trust in the ledgend, if you dont you could distrust bacically anything said about the histroy of hyrule in any game by the same reasoning), and thus it would lead you to believe that there must be a lower "pantheon" of gods which would justify a separate godess of sands (time im not entirely convinced on as it seems a bigger deal that some sand or wind).
Just a thought actually, could the lower pantheon be "spirits". Spirits tend to be a alot more specific than the traditional "omnipotant" gods, thus bringing in a spirit/god of wind etc. Could the duku tree even be a spirit, being as he is ... a talking tree and not really a "creature".
Jabu-Jabu/Jabun is a god, as said by the Zoras.
So, we have seven god(desse)s:
Din (Goddess)
Farore (Goddess)
Nayru (Goddess)
Sand Goddess
Goddess of Time
That frog thing in TWW (God)
Jabu-Jabu/Jabun (God)
Quote from: Marcamillian on April 28, 2007, 02:14:51 PM
Just a thought actually, could the lower pantheon be "spirits". Spirits tend to be a alot more specific than the traditional "omnipotant" gods, thus bringing in a spirit/god of wind etc. Could the duku tree even be a spirit, being as he is ... a talking tree and not really a "creature".
Actually, Valoo is the Spirit of Wind, isn't he?
And yes, the Deku Tree is the Spirit of Earth.
Spirits, not God(desse)s. Spirits could be very powerful mortal beings, possibly immortal ones, but not yet gods.
Huh? I was just commenting on this:
Quotethus bringing in a spirit/god of wind etc.
And seeing as how there are already both a God(s) and Spirit of Wind, that kind of disproves his theory, does it not?
According to Ancient Greek Paganism, a spirit is a higher class mortal, or an immortal who is not a god, with some spiritual powers. It's most likely that the Hyrulean religion is based around Ancient Greek.
You see, it's not based off of Greek at all; the main source of worship in the Hylian religion is the trinity of the three goddesses. Neither Greek nor Roman paganism had a trinity around which their beliefs and gods were based. The spirits and demi-gods, you could say are an aspect of Greek and Hylian worship alike, but there exists no trinity in Greek paganism, meaning that the Hylian religion wasn't based off of Greek or other forms of paganism.
Rather, the goddesses of time/sand/wind/earth/whatever were added conceptionally as elementals, lower in the pantheon, but unrelated to terms of worship, at least when the majority of Hyrule is concerned.
Various other parts and races of Hyrule could be said to be inspired by other religions and mythologies. The Kokiri are irish/celtic fairies, the Gerudo, middle-eastern peoples, and the gorons... I'm not sure where to classify the gorons, except maybe as Nordic Dwarves of sorts.
I think the frog thing is Cyclos, and then his brother Zephos or something, isn't he a god as well?
Demi-god. Valoo would be the dragon spirit of dragon roost island. Not sure if he's a (demi-)god of any sort though.
But he IS worshipped.
Oops, looks like I was wrong. According to his figurine, Valoo is the "Sky Spirit," not the "Spirit of Wind."
BASED OFF OF
That means the game designers probably centered the Hylian religion, more recently anyway, around the Greek Paganism religion. And the Greek religion has those twelve top god(desse)s group that rules over everything basically, which could inspire the Three Golden Goddesses' creation. But generally, it's based alot off of Greek Paganism.
The Goddesses seems more likely to be based on a mix between Christianity/Judaism and Shintoism.
Quotethe Gerudo, middle-eastern peoples
They are actually more closely based on Ancient Greece. The Amazons, anyone?
Well... as for what religious template hylian gods would take I think Evilslayer is right. Anyone can make the connection to 3 godesses and the christian trinity, also, wether or not its been discussed before or even if its relevent, LoZ link has a cross on his shield. I always thought it was a little homage to the crusades but would back up the christianity thing.
I think they used Christian symbols because Hyrule didn't have an official religion at the time. In my fan fics I'm explaining the cross as an upside-down sword.
hmmm... interesting. As i've said before I dont believe that there is a truely unified timeline/theory that encompasses all of the games but trying to make sence of it is the challenge. If you disregard this are you saying that by virtue of being the first game everything can be disgared (not that there was alot to go on).
There must have been a reason for putting the cross on there. If it was asthetics then why not something more relevent? like the triforce? And even then if you wanted to represent religion, why the symbol of a religion that isn't the main religion of the country in which the game was produced?
Using Christian symbols is more exotic for the Japanese.
Bt combined with the TRI-force don't you think this adds up to more than a mere coincidence? To my knowledge (though limited) christianity is the only religion to feature 3 so heavilly. I know 3 and 7 are seen as "magic" numbers but again i think it would have crossed someones mind at nintendo? and i know the triforce doesn't mean 3 godesses yet, but again it begs the question...do you have to ignore everything in this game due to it being the first game and the story not being fully developed??
Actually four is the true magic number(proven mathmeticly) so really it doesn't have relevance.
PM me if you want to know why it is four. If you know why, I will be your lackey for a day.
I think the goddesses were based, in figure and actions, off of ancient 'western' religions, particularily Ancient Greek Paganism.
I can see your logic there... Nayru would be modeled after Athena, Goddess of wisdom. Farore I believe would be modeled after Artemis, goddess of the moon and the hunt. But as for whom Din would be modeled after... I'm not sure... probably Demeter, as she was associated with the Earth, grain, and the Seasons.
Exactly. Very good. :)
And Jabu-Jabu would be Poseidon or an early water god. The frog wind guy is a ?, while the snake one is too. As for time, mabye we could figure that one out a little easier.
Is Jabu-Jabu really a god though? I mean, he doesn't really do anything.
THe parallels may only be drawn between the three golden goddesses and three whom I just mentioned. They are related by power and what they preside over.
But the others, Jabu-jabu, the frogs and typhon, they're all demi-gods. None of them really associate with any of the gods of greco-roman myth.
I don't believe the hylians worship gods other than the Golden trinity, and besides, the greeks would devote their time to one patron god or goddess, rather than to all of them. And I don't believe there were any sacrificial rituals to appease the gods in ANY of the Zelda games.
What proof is there that Jabu Jabu is a god at all? As far as I can see he simply seems to be a large mammal/fish with a crown of some sort placed apon his head that is fed and looked after by zora royalty. Jaboon on the other hand (WW) seems to have a much higher form of intelligence, although one could argue that he is more of a guardian as his role in life seems to be to guard his pearl.
Jabu-Jabu is a god, as stated by one of the Zoras in OoT. I wonder if he might be related to the Wind Fish...
I'll make a comment that's rather funny: The Romans had a God of the Sewer. ;)
Probably not, the Wind Fish is a whale, as stated in LA indirectly.
Jabu-Jabu was stated by King Zora to be a god, when he slid across his throne during the Child part of the game.
They are gods, Demi-gods or regular gods, undeniably. It's possible they were born by other gods. And the Goddess of Time wouldn't be a minor god if she controlled time, which would be major.
Why? All the major goddesses represent the intangible ideas Power, Wisdom, and Courage. Having "Time" in there would be pretty odd, no? I'm assuming the minor deities represent the more tangible facets of the universe, where "Time" would fit in nicely.
Time is a major prospect of the world of Termina. Time is a major prospect of life in all of the universes, and to consider the Goddess of Time to be a minor goddess would be denying this.
Power, Courage, Wisdom,...Time? Yeah, that makes sense.
Courage, Wisdom, Power, Passion. I have filled the TRIFORCE. Passion=Majora.
I would think that if there was a fourth creator deity, it would probably be mentioned somewhere. And it's a lot like the Tetraforce thing: is there really any need? It just seems like a frivolous "ZOMG wouldnt this b kool!" kinda thing.
>_> Well it is.
QuoteProbably not, the Wind Fish is a whale, as stated in LA indirectly.
But Jabu-Jabu is also a whale.
QuoteWhy? All the major goddesses represent the intangible ideas Power, Wisdom, and Courage. Having "Time" in there would be pretty odd, no? I'm assuming the minor deities represent the more tangible facets of the universe, where "Time" would fit in nicely.
Nayru is most likely the Goddess of Time, as she created the natural laws of the Universe. There's also the Oracle of Ages to account for, and in OoT Zelda is referred to as the Princess of
Destiny. In many old mythologies, some gods and goddesses have more than one title.
Destiny could be a goddess. :-\
Bah, everything could be a goddess. even commodore can be a goddess (as has been hilariously proven).
I just realized this: remember the Tower of Hera in LTTP? Hera's the name of the Greek queen of gods. Could this be a reference to the possibility of more gods? :-\
No, it's just a little reference they made to earthy mythology. We can see the earth's constellations in Termina's sky, but that doesn't mean that the mythology of the characters in the constellations is inherit in Zelda.
It's basically nothing more but an obscure reference that never really got developed.
QuoteI just realized this: remember the Tower of Hera in LTTP? Hera's the name of the Greek queen of gods. Could this be a reference to the possibility of more gods?
The real (Japanese) name for Death Mountain in ALttP is Heb(u)ra Mountain. It's probably a mistake made by NoA, or they cut out the
bu because they had already changed the name of the mountain.
QuoteDeath Mountain is called "HEBURA" (Hebra) Mountain. "Death Mountain" is used to refer to the version of Hebra Mountain in the Dark World.
http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z3translation (http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z3translation)