I finally have proof that OoT isn't LttPs backstory!
1=the adult timeline=This has TWW, which explians that Ganons seal weakened enough for him to break out, and take out Hyrule. He eventually dies at the end with the Master Sword in his head.
2=kid timeline=Link gets sent back, and MM happens, and then TP later. TP showed Ganon getting executed, it failed, and he was sent into the Twilight Realm. Aonuma(or Miyamoto, I can't remember who said this) stated that Link was sent back right before he talked to Zelda, and as a result, they talked to the king, and after Ganon did something entirely crazy, they decied to kill him. It failed and later, TP happened.
3= other evidence= the Imprisoning War= LttP backstory stated that people found the Golden Land, and they found out about the Triforce, which they called the Golden Power. Ganon got it 1st which was stated multiple times in the game. It then stated that so many were going into the Golden Land, and fighting each other, that the 7 Sages sealed it, but people knew, and they attacked them. The Knights of Hyrule held them off, but the casting took so long that they were almost all wiped out.
This almost entirely contradicts OoT, as Link fought Ganon to kill him, but he was only able to put him in the Evil Realm. The Sages took only a few seconds to cast the spell, without Zelda, who was the 7th Sage. There wasn't a single soldier left alive to protect the Sages, but they were also in the Temple of Light, which was in the Sacred Realm. Also, people weren't seeking the Triforce, though they might have known of its existence. Ganon only had the ToP, and Link and Zelda had the rest. No person knew of the Sages involvement except Link and Zelda. Aside from Ganon getting sealed in the Sacred Realm, nothing else is really the same.
You might be able to say some of it could correlate by the legend getting obscured by time, but things like the Sages coming in the legend doesn't really make any sense. Also, the TWW legend says nothing about Sages, but Ganon taking over, and Link coming out of nowhere, and winning.
I'm not saying LttP can't be after OOT, but it can't be its backstory.
This belongs in Timelines really.
I don't see how your first point contradicts it. And "other evidence" you are completely paraphrasing. Do a little reading between the lines and use exact quotes when trying this. Because I could do the same thing you do and easily contradict you.
Contadict me then! :) I accept the challenge. Show me how it's possible, even if the seal transcended to the kid timeline! Anyway, I have to do this from memory.
Ok, you could twist it so that the Twilight Realm into being the same as the Dark World.
It's been stated they're two seperate things.
Miyamoto has stated OOT was before LTTP, in fact, he put LTTP at the end of his timelnie in 1998.
Well, I suggest you ask Evilslayer for more details, because all of LTTP was mixed around from the Japanese version. Ask him, and you'll know the truth.
I know they are seperate things, I was just doing the same thing he was. And Japanese doesn't mean canon you know.
Actually, it is. The Japanese was the original plot made by the game designers, while the American version hcnaged it like 4KIDS changes any anime it gets. The Japanese is the original, even the name Link to the Past is a change.
Theres notable evidence to say the Dark World isn't the Twilight Realm.
1 The interlopers tried to take over the Sacred Realm, and the goddesses banished them to the Twilight Realm.
2Why would they seal them in the place they wanted to go?
3 The Dark World is Ganons versiom of Hyrule. The Twilight Realm is the Twilight Realm.
It's said in the game that the Twilight Realm became known as the Twilight Realm, probably because no one had ever heard of it, and it was perpetual twilight.
Wait, you are calling the sacred realm and the twilight realm the same things there. That's a no-no.
??? Read the post, people, I don't think it is.
QuoteI know they are seperate things, I was just doing the same thing he was.
Read the edit! I did make it sound like I said they were the same by accident.
I suggest you read the Book of Mudora at TGA, if I remember right, it explains it well.
As I said, it's been stated that they are two seperate things by the game producers.
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 14, 2007, 12:18:55 PM
Actually, it is. The Japanese was the original plot made by the game designers, while the American version hcnaged it like 4KIDS changes any anime it gets. The Japanese is the original, even the name Link to the Past is a change.
Except the fact that the English version is
also made by Nintendo. So your little analogy there falls flat.
Just because it was made by Nintendo doesn't make it the original. The American version was changed too much to make it cannon, so the Japanese version is the one that you must use while making a timeline.
You still haven't presented any actual reasons, only "It is because I say so." excuses.
Now I have no problem with you using the Japanese games to create your own (separate) Japanese timeline, but once you start stating the English games mean nothing is where I get riled up. Is there any quote from anyone at Nintendo saying anything like this? If not, I see no reason to assume you're correct.
The way I like to see it is there are two separate continuities: the Japanese one and the English one. Each of these are each equally canonical in their own continuities, i.e. no mixing and matching.
So, to sum up. I see no reason to believe you until I get some higher-up stating it. Until then, you can believe what you want to believe, and I can believe what I want to believe. But let's try not to force our opinions upon one another by saying either one of us is definitively correct, m'kay?
*Sigh* Oh, just forget it.
Let's do it through example:
Have you ever heard of a movie called Poseidon? It's about a ship that, in one way or another, gets flipped upside-down and some people try to get out. There was one movie made at least 30 years ago, while recently another version has been made. Which is the original?
Uh, the first one was obviously the original, but that doesn't have anything to do with its canonical status. I would consider the newer the more accurate telling of events, 'cause it's newer. ;D
But I don't see what this has to do with the topic, seeing as how the only remade Zelda was ALttP for GBA (which I consider more canonical than the original, by the way).
It's just a movie, not a real life event.
It has much to do with this. Because the Japanese version was made first, that makes it the original.
Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 15, 2007, 10:35:16 AM
It's just a movie, not a real life event.
Oh gee, thanks Captain Obvious, I had no idea. Seriously, why even bring it up if you're gonna bother to listen to me about what I consider it's canonical status? And there's no need to get snarky.
QuoteIt has much to do with this. Because the Japanese version was made first, that makes it the original.
Yes, and seeing as how the English versions are exactly the same games, yet with a different translation, I still don't see what the Poseidon example had to do with anything.
It's an example of something else that has a very similar, almost exact, 'what's considered cannon' problem. Because the Japanese one was made first, it's the original, and therefore the cannon version.
Actually, if they had correctly translated the game without changing stuff, even the name Link to the Past would be different, it would be Triforce of the Gods. And that ISN'T a mistranslation.
And what does snarky mean?
Artist, what parts of the games text was changed besides the title, and Aghanim from being a priest? I consider the SNES the canon one, because it was made 1st. And the OoT with the real Mirror Shield, because I saw a different version being used in the Collecters Edition. Some Muslims said something, so Nintendo had to change it.
Well, the LTTP backstory about the war was changed. I'm not good at this, but Evilslayer is a master, so PM him these questions.
Were really getting off topic. This isnt about whether the Japenese version is canon, or the American version is cannon, but, from what Ive seen, there is too little difference for either one to be false. I doubt that the backstory is very different in each game. Unless someone can tell me a major storyline difference between the two, I think we should get back to the topic on hand.
I doubt very seriously that another game is LttP's back story other than OoT. I haven't seen ne other game that features sages sealing Ganon away (I could be wrong, Im very tires ;) )
Also theres the fact that it has been stated.
The English version is full of mistranslations. It was not made separately from the Japanese version. Most games back then where full of mistranslations because no one could afford decent translators. Even today there are some mistranslations.
The latest that I know of is in TWW, where it's said, in the English version, that Medli is of the same bloodline as Laruto.
Are you saying the part where they said Medli was decended from Laratu a mistranslation? Because that might finally destroy the Zora-Rito theory? And If I don't even need in-game text to prove that OOT is LttPs backstory anymore. TWW has stained glass paintngs in Hyrule castle of the OOT sages, and Aonuma said the Ganon sealing was a fewyears after the OOT ending.
How else would she be the Sage of Earth, pray tell?
Oh, and I'm not just gonna take Evilslayer's word for it either. He seems to think everything is a mistranslation. I mean, ever since that "Oni Link" thing I'm not gonna take his word on any mistranslations without some evidence to back it up.
O.K., but it's still impossible, since evolution on asmall scale takes MILLIONS of years. TWW was probably a thousand years after OOT.
I'm assuming Valoo had something to do with it. I mean, scales which give you the ability to grow wings are impossible too; are you gonna deny those exist? Years of living on Dragon Roost with Valoo and his crazy scales could've possibly done something to their physiology.
How it happened isn't really relevant though. How else could she be the Sage of Earth?
Because she's a spiritual descendant? But I must admit, the reason I don't link to where I found out about the TWW mistranslastion is because it's at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_series_races#Rito). The reason I view this information as reliable, though, is the way it's used.
But let's assume it's false. Even then there's no evidence at all that even suggest the possibility that the Rito have evolved from the Zora. All it say is that Medli, a white-skinned and red-haired Rito who can't fly very well, is a descendant of a Zora. And we know from OoT that crossbreeding isn't something unthinkable in Hyrule.
The only other evidence is the Zora sign. But if that can be used as evidence, then the Bokoblins are descendants of the Kokiri.
As for ALttP...
http://www.zeldalegends.net/ (http://www.zeldalegends.net/)
I would post links, but the site in question is down for maintenance. :'(
Quote from: Evilslayer on May 09, 2007, 10:21:08 AM
Because she's a spiritual descendant? But I must admit, the reason I don't link to where I found out about the TWW mistranslastion is because it's at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda_series_races#Rito). The reason I view this information as reliable, though, is the way it's used.
Apart from the descendant thing though, does it not say they're of the same bloodline in the Japanese version as well?
QuoteBut let's assume it's false. Even then there's no evidence at all that even suggest the possibility that the Rito have evolved from the Zora. All it say is that Medli, a white-skinned and red-haired Rito who can't fly very well, is a descendant of a Zora. And we know from OoT that crossbreeding isn't something unthinkable in Hyrule.
I've heard you say this before and can't for the life of me figure out where this was stated in OoT. Care to jog my memory?
And lets just say it is possible, where exactly did we see any Zora in TWW? Do you just assume they're there to prove she could've been the offspring of some unholy hybrid union? You sure do like the circular logic, don't you?
QuoteThe only other evidence is the Zora sign. But if that can be used as evidence, then the Bokoblins are descendants of the Kokiri.
Point, but did you not notice that Medli and Laruto's clothes were virtually identical? Though you'll probably just say she inherited it from her Zora side, or something...
And it's still a mighty coincidence though, doncha think? What with the descendant thing and them both having the same symbols? Mighty big coincidence.
QuoteAs for ALttP...
http://www.zeldalegends.net/ (http://www.zeldalegends.net/)
I would post links, but the site in question is down for maintenance. :'(
How convenient for you. (I'm joking of course. :))
So Valoos scales changed fish people to bird people in a thousand years? And where does it say Valoo gave the Rito scales? And why couldn't a zora and Rito mate? Medlis parents probably had it from a long time ago, and passed it on.
Quote from: Penguin dude R2 on May 09, 2007, 03:38:32 PM
So Valoos scales changed fish people to bird people in a thousand years?
Either that or Valoo (or maybe one of the Gods) did it purposely. Or maybe something entirely different, I don't know. *shrugs*
QuoteAnd where does it say Valoo gave the Rito scales?
Did you even play TWW?
QuoteAnd why couldn't a zora and Rito mate?
I believe this has already been discussed before, but if you want the short version: They're too genetically dissimilar for such a union to produce offspring.
QuoteMedlis parents probably had it from a long time ago, and passed it on.
Uh, that still leaves the problem of the Zora symbol on it. And what of Komali's necklace? It has the symbol as well.
And just what makes it impossible for a Rito and Zora to mate? Why would the gods change fish people to bird people? Zoras can breathe all water, if you haven't played OOA or MM. Where does it say Valoos scales make you fly? Maybe the zora person was dying and told the rito to pass the stuff along, or they might have told the Rito it was important. And the necklace looks like... a necklace.
QuoteI've heard you say this before and can't for the life of me figure out where this was stated in OoT. Care to jog my memory?
And lets just say it is possible, where exactly did we see any Zora in TWW? Do you just assume they're there to prove she could've been the offspring of some unholy hybrid union? You sure do like the circular logic, don't you?
1. *cough*Ruto*cough*
2. It seems to me that the Zoras are a river/lake people. That would explain their absence in TWW.
3. You claim I don't have any standing evidence that OoT isn't the first time Ganon attacks. I don't see your arguments that the Ritos are evolved Zoras are any better.
QuotePoint, but did you not notice that Medli and Laruto's clothes were virtually identical? Though you'll probably just say she inherited it from her Zora side, or something...
Why do Link wear "Kokiri" clothes in every game, while he's only associated with them in one game and there's only two games where he starts without them? Anyway, Medli is not the daughter of the chieftain. That would have been the case if it had proved that the Ritos are evolved Zoras.
QuoteHow convenient for you.
Yes, it is.
LoZ (http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z1translation)
AoL (http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z2translation)
ALttP (http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z3translation)
If the Western versions are as right as the Japanese versions then why was the Golden Land called the Sacred Realm in OoT? Why doesn't the Book of Mudora have a more important role? Why aren't the Gerudos skilled in the black arts? Why is Ganon only called by the names Dragmire (when human) and Mandrag (when a daemon) in the English version of ALttP on the SNES?
Quote from: Evilslayer on May 17, 2007, 08:59:58 AM
1. *cough*Ruto*cough*
Ah, I see. So you assume that because Ruto held an interest in Link, a Hylian, that they could somehow breed? Please tell me how that incredible leap of logic makes any sense.
Quote2. It seems to me that the Zoras are a river/lake people. That would explain their absence in TWW.
In MM they lived in the sea, did they not? And that wasn't really my point at all. You say she could've somehow been the result of a Zora/Ruto relationship despite there being
no evidence of the Zora even existing in the Great Sea by this point.
Quote3. You claim I don't have any standing evidence that OoT isn't the first time Ganon attacks. I don't see your arguments that the Ritos are evolved Zoras are any better.
That's only because
you're arguing against distorted strawmannish versions of my arguments.
QuoteWhy do Link wear "Kokiri" clothes in every game, while he's only associated with them in one game and there's only two games where he starts without them?
Completely irrelevant to the point, seeing as how it's hardly impossible for someone to wear a green tunic and hat without some connection to the Kokiri. They're hardly items of clothing you wouldn't expect to see on a common Hylian person. You know, unlike the symbol of an
entire race of people.QuoteAnyway, Medli is not the daughter of the chieftain. That would have been the case if it had proved that the Ritos are evolved Zoras.
Oh, I see. So only those related to the chieftain would've been descended from the Zora, right? And this actually makes sense to you?
QuoteYes, it is.
LoZ (http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z1translation)
AoL (http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z2translation)
ALttP (http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z3translation)
If the Western versions are as right as the Japanese versions then why was the Golden Land called the Sacred Realm in OoT? Why doesn't the Book of Mudora have a more important role? Why aren't the Gerudos skilled in the black arts? Why is Ganon only called by the names Dragmire (when human) and Mandrag (when a daemon) in the English version of ALttP on the SNES?
Oh, I get it. You think every little difference between the versions
must be some kind of mistranslation of the sacred Japanese games. As opposed to, you know, conscious decisions to change things for non-Japanese releases, for localization or whatever reason.
Oh, and you assume the creators had some great backstory for ALttP, planning out all of OoT. As opposed to them, when creating OoT, looking at the Japanese version's backstory (you know, 'cause they're
Japanese, and would obviously have easier access to them) to create OoT. Which sounds more plausible?
Edit: Oh, and the fact that hardly anything else was changed for the GBA version. Seems odd, don't it? Especially in this day and age.
And I read your links. Most of them are just stupid semantical differences. And the guy hardly seems unbiased in his analysis.
Quote from: Penguin dude: Rebirth of Tsukasa on May 10, 2007, 04:47:45 PM
Where does it say Valoos scales make you fly?
Play the game, they say it themselves.
QuoteAnd just what makes it impossible for a Rito and Zora to mate?
Commodore already explained that they aren't similar enough genetically. Does anybody even read anymore?
QuoteAh, I see. So you assume that because Ruto held an interest in Link, a Hylian, that they could somehow breed? Please tell me how that incredible leap of logic makes any sense.
My point is that it's not taboo.
QuoteCompletely irrelevant to the point, seeing as how it's hardly impossible for someone to wear a green tunic and hat without some connection to the Kokiri. They're hardly items of clothing you wouldn't expect to see on a common Hylian person. You know, unlike the symbol of an entire race of people.
Have you ever seen any Hylian at all (except the flute-boy, who was clearly based on Link) who wears a hood like that?
QuoteOh, I see. So only those related to the chieftain would've been descended from the Zora, right? And this actually makes sense to you?
Zora
princess.
Quote from: Evilslayer on May 29, 2007, 07:54:22 AM
My point is that it's not taboo.
Says who? Nobody besides Link and Ruto were even
aware of the "engagement." And that still doesn't mean they're capable of breeding.
QuoteHave you ever seen any Hylian at all (except the flute-boy, who was clearly based on Link) who wears a hood like that?
The Kokiri based their form in OoT on the Hylians. The Deku Tree says as much in TWW. Do you think they'd come up with entirely new styles of clothing when that would completely go against the point of their current form?
And the fact that certain Links wear the clothes (TMC, FS, FSA, ALttP, TLoZ/AoL) with
no connection to the Kokiri whatsoever means it wasn't exactly an uncommon form of clothing.
And I believe
Eralk Fang made a post somewhere detailing a couple such cases of similarly dressed Hylians.
QuoteZora princess.
Bwuh? Could you elaborate on this please?
Quote from: Commodore Norrington on May 29, 2007, 12:34:28 PM
Quote from: Evilslayer on May 29, 2007, 07:54:22 AM
My point is that it's not taboo.
Says who? Nobody besides Link and Ruto were even aware of the "engagement." And that still doesn't mean they're capable of breeding.
I probably shouldn't interrupt, but:
To hell with logic, it's Zelda!
I've been dying to say that. Sorry. ;w;
Everything has to follow some kind of internal universal logic. If not, then I don't see the point in discussing anything. Total intellectual anarchy and illogic would make this section of the board somewhat pointless, don't you think?
Quote from: Commodore Norrington on May 30, 2007, 06:55:51 AM
Everything has to follow some kind of internal universal logic. If not, then I don't see the point in discussing anything. Total intellectual anarchy and illogic would make this section of the board somewhat pointless, don't you think?
Yeah, sorry. XD;; I was just dying to say that.
I mean, the breeding systems of Hyrule could be totally different from ours on Earth. Or something like that. -scuttles away-
QuoteIt seems to me that the Zoras are a river/lake people. That would explain their absence in TWW.
Okay, I'm going ot make it perfectly clear for those who haven't played Oracle of Ages that
THE ZORAS CAN LIVE IN SALT WATER!!In Oracle of Ages, there are many Zoras seen in the Salt Water, proving that they can live in salt water oceans.
The rest of the conversation I could care less about, but you guys can go on.
Quote from: Whocares on June 11, 2007, 04:19:38 PM
QuoteIt seems to me that the Zoras are a river/lake people. That would explain their absence in TWW.
Okay, I'm going ot make it perfectly clear for those who haven't played Oracle of Ages that
THE ZORAS CAN LIVE IN SALT WATER!!
In Oracle of Ages, there are many Zoras seen in the Salt Water, proving that they can live in salt water oceans.
The rest of the conversation I could care less about, but you guys can go on.
I think Commodore already said they can live in saltwater. /: Majora's Mask and all.