The Desert Colossus

I've seen a few people who think the timeline is single, but no arguments forthcoming.  C'mon, someone has to have an actual argument besides "I'm right and you're wrong unless you agree with me". There has to be at least one person who can argue it.

I think it can be any way.  I use whatever theory is convenient for the story I'm writing.  Simple as that.

The timeline is split because it has been stated by the game producers to be split.

Also, Storyline stuff.

I totally agree with Whocares. It has actually been stated. I'm not saying that a single timeline is completely outrageous, but a split timeline is just much more agreeable with the storyline. You can believe what ever you want to believe, but being a single is just being stubborn.

I so believe the split! I know its been stated, though there are those who don't care, and I wanted to see what the arguments were.

Quote from: Dragmire on April 17, 2007, 07:05:22 PM
I totally agree with Whocares. It has actually been stated. I'm not saying that a single timeline is completely outrageous, but a split timeline is just much more agreeable with the storyline.

Okay, I've always felt that the split timeline was just too unnecessarily complex, i.e. Occam's Razor kinda disagrees with it there. I'd really like to know why you think the split timeline makes more sense.

Edit: I'm actually of the opinion that most people here only believe the split timeline because of Aonuma. Maybe we should use our own brains a bit more instead of someone else's, hmm?

QuoteYou can believe what ever you want to believe, but being a single is just being stubborn.

This is just precious. You can believe whatever you want to believe...as long as it's what I believe, right?

Well, Commodore, the reason it makes more sense is because at the end of OOT...

* Zelda said, before sending Link back in time, that she would repair her country.
* If Link went back in time, then the events of Adult OOT never happened and no one would remember them but Link. At the end, it has been seen Link and Zelda talk with each other. In the talk Link tells Zelda about the future, and this forever changes their relationship with Ganon. As a result, Ganon is to be persucuted by the sages.

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 18, 2007, 12:58:43 PM
* Zelda said, before sending Link back in time, that she would repair her country.

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean there has to be any games after it, now does it?

Quote* If Link went back in time, then the events of Adult OOT never happened and no one would remember them but Link. At the end, it has been seen Link and Zelda talk with each other. In the talk Link tells Zelda about the future, and this forever changes their relationship with Ganon. As a result, Ganon is to be persucuted by the sages.

Uh, yeah exactly. He'd tell people about it, ergo people would know about it. What is this point supposed to say for you exactly?

Split. Why does it have to be single? Live it up individually, with each game. That's how I roll :3 Whatever works for you, though, I guess.

I never said that there were any games after it, but if Link were to go back and time and Adult Link's world erased, then there would be no point in saying she would repair her kingdom, because it wouldn't exist for her to do so.

You alos had no understanding at all of my post.

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 18, 2007, 01:46:00 PM
I never said that there were any games after it, but if Link were to go back and time and Adult Link's world erased, then there would be no point in saying she would repair her kingdom, because it wouldn't exist for her to do so.

Good thing I never said Adult Link's world was erased then. *rolls eyes*

I'd appreciate it if you'd actually read my posts before responding to them.

QuoteYou alos had no understanding at all of my post.

Were you not saying that only Link would know of what happened in the future? 'Cause if not, you should probably make your posts easier to understand.

Only Link would know when he was snet back in time. Navi probably did, too, but she doesn't matter at this point.

But Link told Zelda, and through a chain of events Ganon would have to be executed.

Okay, but how would that prove the split timeline? I'm really confused here as to what you're trying to argue.

Read it over a few times, and you'll get it. I prefer to make people's brains work, for knowledge is essential. And the 'excecution' happens in a flashback in TP, the one where you get the first mirror-fragment.

For the love of me I can not figure out what you're trying to say. It looks to me like some sort of observation on what happens after OoT; what it has to do with the split timeline, I have no idea.

OOT is the key. If Link had gone back in time, then no one but him would remember the events of OOT, and he told Zelda, which led to TP.

And without a hero, Adult Link's time repaired Hyrule, but one day Ganon, who was locked in the Sacred Realm by the sages, came out, and caused the flood, and then long after that TWW.

I didn't chose split because of Aunoma. I chose it because it's hard to make a single timeline, and it just doesn't make sense to me. You have the future, after Ganons beaten, and Zelda tries to repair it. Child has Link going to Termina, then coming back. It's also impossible for TP to be in a single timeline coming after OOT, since OOT has Ganon in the Sacred Realm, and TP has him in the Twilight Realm. BIG difference.

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 18, 2007, 03:00:56 PM
OOT is the key. If Link had gone back in time, then no one but him would remember the events of OOT, and he told Zelda, which led to TP.

And without a hero, Adult Link's time repaired Hyrule, but one day Ganon, who was locked in the Sacred Realm by the sages, came out, and caused the flood, and then long after that TWW.

You are aware that's all speculation, right? It doesn't prove anything.

Quote from: Penguin dude 2 on April 18, 2007, 03:20:43 PM
I didn't chose split because of Aunoma. I chose it because it's hard to make a single timeline, and it just doesn't make sense to me. You have the future, after Ganons beaten, and Zelda tries to repair it. Child has Link going to Termina, then coming back. It's also impossible for TP to be in a single timeline coming after OOT, since OOT has Ganon in the Sacred Realm, and TP has him in the Twilight Realm. BIG difference.

Did you see the cutscene where he was put into the Twilight Realm? And Ganon has never escaped from the Dark Realm before, am i rite?

LTTP. Agahnim was his alter ego. And let's not forget TWW.

It was a sarcastic question. I meant the opposite of what I said. I would've thought the "am i rite" would've made it obvious, but this is the internet afterall.

This is why we need new smileys.

Im still not seeing any arguments from your side of the story Commadore. All your doing is pointing out flaws in the split timeline theory, but we could just as easily tear your theory apart.

I am not pointing out flaws in the split timeline theory, in fact I find it just as plausible as the single timeline theory (apart from the whole Occam's Razor thing). I'm just pointing out flaws in Whocares arguments for it. I'm only saying that there's no real proof for either of them. So really you can believe which ever one you want, but don't start saying you have any proof for it and that your way is the true and only way.

And I'd love to see you tear my theory apart. It should be interesting.

I'll do it, since you insist.  ;D

At the end of OOT, Zelda sent Link back in time to Child Link's world. Because he was snet back in time permanently, Adult Link World techniqually 'never happened'.

Then let's go to TWW. In much of TWW, they make many references to OOT. It's clear this is from after OOT. If this was in Child Link's world, then all the legends wuold just be legends because the events 'never happened'. Because the events happened in Adult Link's time, it is clear that this would be Adult Link's world, where the events happened.

And in TWW's intro, where they speak of the Hero of Time, it says Ganon escaped from the Sacred Realm, while in Child Link's world it Ganon wasn't sealed away. If he got out of the Sacred Realm without being put in there, how could he have gotten out then if he was never locked away there?

And also, at OOT's end, Zelda says 'I'll rebuild my nation' in some way or form. If, when Link went back in time, the events of Adult Link's world never happened, then she would not need to have said this, because neither she owlud exist to rebuild it or the kingdom be there to be rebuilt by her.

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 19, 2007, 12:23:17 PM
At the end of OOT, Zelda sent Link back in time to Child Link's world. Because he was snet back in time permanently, Adult Link World techniqually 'never happened'.

Then let's go to TWW. In much of TWW, they make many references to OOT. It's clear this is from after OOT. If this was in Child Link's world, then all the legends wuold just be legends because the events 'never happened'. Because the events happened in Adult Link's time, it is clear that this would be Adult Link's world, where the events happened.

Since you're such an Aonuma fan I assume you think TP happens in the Child Timeline, correct? Since that happens to also mention the Hero of Time multiple times, you must realize that you'll also have to deal with this problem. I just assume he told people (Zelda being the most notable) and it snowballed from there. It is a "legend," after all.

QuoteAnd in TWW's intro, where they speak of the Hero of Time, it says Ganon escaped from the Sacred Realm, while in Child Link's world it Ganon wasn't sealed away. If he got out of the Sacred Realm without being put in there, how could he have gotten out then if he was never locked away there?

There are multiple inconsistencies in the Zelda-verse like this; such as Ganon having the Triforce of Power in ALttP. You just have to come up with your own explanations for them, like him having reacquired it somehow before the game in my example. In this scenario I just assume he was sealed in the Sacred Realm prior to the events of TWW (his "death" in TP, perhaps?). Or maybe the Sacred Realm is independent from the workings of the normal world, ergo things that happen there don't affect things that happen here and vice-versa.

QuoteAnd also, at OOT's end, Zelda says 'I'll rebuild my nation' in some way or form. If, when Link went back in time, the events of Adult Link's world never happened, then she would not need to have said this, because neither she owlud exist to rebuild it or the kingdom be there to be rebuilt by her.

I've already addressed this. I guess I do technically believe in the split timeline, since I assume the Adult world still exists. But I don't think any games happen there, ergo I believe in the single timeline. I know it's just semantics, but there ya go. ;)

TP makes little references to OOT at all, while TWW is almost entirely based around OOT.

Let me ask you this:

If some small kid in green clothes unlike the ones from your own culture and told you that he had gone seven years into the future, fought an evil king who had taken over Hyrule, and got sent back in time by Zelda, would you believe him?

Most people wouldn't. Sure, the Gorons and Zoras might, more so the Gorons, but the others probably wouldn't beleive them either.

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 19, 2007, 12:57:37 PM
TP makes little references to OOT at all, while TWW is almost entirely based around OOT.

Yeah, but the fact that he's wearing the guy's friggin clothes is kind of a big deal, yes? And why exactly does it matter how many times it's mentioned? The fact that it's even mentioned at all is the problem.

QuoteIf some small kid in green clothes unlike the ones from your own culture and told you that he had gone seven years into the future, fought an evil king who had taken over Hyrule, and got sent back in time by Zelda, would you believe him?

Most people wouldn't. Sure, the Gorons and Zoras might, more so the Gorons, but the others probably wouldn't beleive them either.

Obviously it wouldn't happen at first, but I believe TP comes at least a thousand years after OoT. And that's plenty of time for these things to grow. I mean just look at what's happened in the last thousand years.

Yes, but still, would you believe? Which was my question.

Every Link wears the same clothes, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a direct refernce to OOT.

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 19, 2007, 01:11:53 PM
Yes, but still, would you believe? Which was my question.

I'm not a normal person in a society where crazy stuff like that happens all the time. Whether I would believe it or not isn't really relevant. And in case you haven't noticed, average people are pretty darn stupid, and that's today! Imagine how bad it was in the middle-ages.

QuoteEvery Link wears the same clothes, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a direct refernce to OOT.

I'm pretty sure it was a direct reference to OoT, but whatever, man. Like I said before, believe whatever you want to believe.

Edit: Fine, I edited it. Wouldn't want the God Squad to get on my case.

Four games without Link wearing that were already made, it's just traditional.

Also, the language wasn't necessary.

It's regarded by pretty much everyone that TP comes right after OoT in the timeline, be it split or single. Don't tell me you disagree with this sentiment?

I do, and for the reason of Majora's Mask.  :-*

Urggh, that doesn't really have any impact on the timeline outside of itself, now does it? You know exactly what I meant.

Well, besides MM, TP does come after OOT directly.

So who's clothes do you think those were exactly?

The clothes could have belonged to :
1OOT Link
2LttP Link. I forgot if LttP was a legendary hero, or not. Anyway, Majoras Mask was the HoTs story of finding that he didn't need navi as a friend, he already had some. He went to his friend, and he got a lot of friends in the process.

Now that's just crazy. How could those possibly be ALttP Link's clothes?

Don't even start his whole, LttP before OoT argument in this topic. That belongs in another on this board. Anyway....

Those aren't any ones cloths. It says it his spiritual clothing. We will never see a Zelda game were Link doesn't have a green tunic at some point.

Id like you (Commodore) to state one fact that supports the single timeline theory, besides the irrelevant  references to other games.....

Stubborn like an arse

Oh, bullsh*t. The spirit Faron specifically states those are the legendary hero's clothes.

I've already stated how I feel about the evidence for both cases, and if you wanna be a jerk about it then fine.

I would also suggest you give me some facts supporting your case...unless you're either gonna change your mind, or be a hypocritical a-hole.

Commodore, sh*t is in the Word Ban List chosen by Jack himself, so that's a warning for cussing and insulting in one post.

Also, we have been stating proof, but you haven't been listening.

Edit2: Retracted on apparent misunderstanding.

Quote from: The Artist Formerly Known As Whocares on April 20, 2007, 05:16:58 PMAlso, we have been stating proof, but you haven't been listening.

Please, what do you think we've been arguing about the last four pages? And that wasn't really directed at you, it was directed at Dragmire because apparently I have to provide evidence but he doesn't.

Edit: And hold on just a minute. It's even forbidden when you censor it? That's crazy.

Its a quote from a movie  :-*

It didn't mean anything really. Just saying its hard to convince you.

The fact you said you targeted it at him didn't help at all.

It was never targeted at anyone.....
???

He said he did so at you.

Oh I thought you were talking about me  :-X

I forgot if LttPs Link was a legendary hero. Possibly the Hero of Men. Remember= possibly. So is there an argument for the single timeline theory?

QuoteOh, bullsh*t. The spirit Faron specifically states those are the legendary hero's clothes.

And does he say which Legendary Hero? I didn't see him mentioning the Hero of Time. In fact, that title is never used in the game at all.

Yeah, yeah. But of course conventional wisdom places TP directly after OoT, and I was arguing with that in mind. I admit, he could be referring to some other hero.

Is there an argument for the single timeline? If not, I'm gonna lock this in 3 days. And thats not a threat, thats a statemnet of fact.

Is there an argument for the split timeline that doesn't rely on false assumptions and circular logic?

The problem here is that even with any evidence for either side, you still can't rule out the other one. I mean it is a fictional world that's continually expanding, people. You can never be sure about anything.

There is evidence for the split timeline, seeing as Twilight proved that, showing 200 years later Ganon being sealed in the Twilight Realm, and having 2 endings to OOT, and having Ganon being sealed in the Sacred Realm in Adult timeline. I've seen your timeline, and it's impossible. The Twilight and Sacred Realms are 2 different places. If we went with yours, Ganon couldn't switch seals. Also, he just recieved the ToP when he got the sword in him, and in OOT adult timeline, he had it since you went to the future. And you still haven't offered a single piece of evidence for the single timeline.

Since you apparently saw the cutscene of him being sealed in the Twilight Realm then you must be aware that he wasn't in their beforehand. So I'm completely clueless as to what you think you're proving here. You're aware he could've gotten out of the Sacred/Dark Realm, yes? It's not like he hasn't done it before.

Edit: Oh, and I have this crazy theory that it wasn't even the same Ganondorf. Though it suffers from a bit of a lack of evidence, it's still interesting nonetheless.

And where do you get the idea that he only got the ToP when he got stabbed? How do you know he didn't have it beforehand?

Edit2: Waitaminute, how does this prove the split timeline again? You think the fact that it just popped into his hand (at least that's what you say happens) proves the split timeline...how exactly?

QuoteAnd you still haven't offered a single piece of evidence for the single timeline.

And you still haven't listened to a word I've said.

I must agree with Commodore Xigbar. I'm a splittist myself, but the only real evidence for the Split Timeline is Aonuma's recent statement (well, recent for us Westerners :-*), and not everyone takes creator quotes based on the timeline as canon.

To those people the Single Timeline is at least as likely as the Split Timeline.

Yeah, he got out of a seal he was never in(kid timeline)? That makes absolute sense. And where would he get the ToP from if the Door of TIme was never opened and tghe Master sword never removed? And it's kinda hard to go back to a seal you escaped from AND from being dead. So, whats your argument for the single timeline? I really want to hear something besides you attacking the splitters and not defending yourself.

Quote from: Penguin dude R2 on May 09, 2007, 03:51:01 PM
Yeah, he got out of a seal he was never in(kid timeline)? That makes absolute sense.

You assume the Sacred Realm exists on the same plane of existence as the normal world. We already know Rauru was ageless (or at least couldn't die) while inside. Is it that much of a stretch to assume it's independent from the world's temporal workings?

QuoteAnd where would he get the ToP from if the Door of TIme was never opened and tghe Master sword never removed?

See above.

QuoteAnd it's kinda hard to go back to a seal you escaped from AND from being dead.

I can't even understand what you're saying here. Clarify please.

QuoteSo, whats your argument for the single timeline? I really want to hear something besides you attacking the splitters and not defending yourself.

So, what's your reason for not understanding my position? I really want to hear something besides you attacking me and not bothering to read my posts.

Did you even beat Twilight Princess? Ganon died. He also lost the Triforce of Power. But in Ocarina, he was trapped in the Sacred Realm. He got out of that for his job in TWW. In Twilight, he was sealed in a place entirely different. That place was called the Twilight Realm. And even if he got back to life and his seal in the Sacred Realm, how would he get the Triforce of Power back. And you say I just don't read your posts? I can't answer them if I don't read them, smart one. And you still haven't given even one piece of evidence of the single timeline, while you continue to attack the split timeline, no matter how many times I ask. Do you even have one? Or are you just going to try and deflect the question again?

Quote from: Penguin dude R2 on May 10, 2007, 04:41:30 PM
Did you even beat Twilight Princess? Ganon died. He also lost the Triforce of Power. But in Ocarina, he was trapped in the Sacred Realm. He got out of that for his job in TWW. In Twilight, he was sealed in a place entirely different. That place was called the Twilight Realm. And even if he got back to life and his seal in the Sacred Realm, how would he get the Triforce of Power back.

Do you know how many times Ganon has died? Death is like a minor inconvenience akin to a head cold to him. Have you ever played a Zelda game before?

And if he really lost the ToP wouldn't it have stayed there, not faded away? When someone loses a Triforce Piece it doesn't just disappear, it stays there. You know, like it does in TLoZ, ALttP, and TWW.

QuoteAnd you say I just don't read your posts? I can't answer them if I don't read them, smart one.

Obviously, but you apparently can't comprehend them.

QuoteAnd you still haven't given even one piece of evidence of the single timeline, while you continue to attack the split timeline, no matter how many times I ask. Do you even have one? Or are you just going to try and deflect the question again?

I suggest you go back and read my previous posts.

Yes he died. He WASN'T sealed back in the Sacred Realm. Did you see the ToP hanging around after he died? I know I didn't. In LttP, the wholoe thing was behind Ganons room. In TWW, It probably went above the waves, or went back to its holders. The only time it actually hangs around is in LOZ. I didn't see one of your posts giving evidence to th single timeline. You just deflected the question. Again. So, for the last time, what is your argument? If you deflect the question again, I'm declaring victory for the split timeline, and locking this topic.

Quote from: Penguin dude: Rebirth of Tsukasa on May 14, 2007, 05:58:01 PM
Yes he died. He WASN'T sealed back in the Sacred Realm.

Because I totally remember someone in TWW saying Ganon escaped from the Sacred Realm.

Oh, wait...

QuoteDid you see the ToP hanging around after he died? I know I didn't.

Yeah, that was only my whole friggin' point. *rolls eyes*

QuoteIn LttP, the wholoe thing was behind Ganons room.

Yeah, I don't remember ALttP that well, so you might be right about this one.

QuoteIn TWW, It probably went above the waves, or went back to its holders.

I meant before that, when he gathers them to form the whole Triforce.

QuoteThe only time it actually hangs around is in LOZ.

But he died, right? So it must have disappeared!

QuoteI didn't see one of your posts giving evidence to th single timeline. You just deflected the question.

And I don't remember saying I ever had any evidence for it. If you'd actually read my posts then you'd understand this.

QuoteAgain. So, for the last time, what is your argument? If you deflect the question again, I'm declaring victory for the split timeline, and locking this topic.

I've already stated my opinion of the matter, and if you're going to be a petulant child about it then fine. "Declaring" yourself the winner won't help you in the slightest.

He escaped the Sacred Realm for TWW, and when he escaped, the people asked the gods for help, and they flooded Hyrule. In TP, NO ONE knew it was Ganon except for Link, MIdna, Zelda, Zant, and maybe king Bulbin. So why would they ask for help against an enemy they don't know about? Check Youtube for the LttP ending. The split timeline has won, apparently.

You have no need to unlock this because of the poll, this is a very useful topic. The poll doesn't matter, this is still very useful. And because a mod unlocked this, it's assured that this is stayed unlocked.

Quote from: Penguin dude: Rebirth of Tsukasa on May 15, 2007, 01:30:11 PM
He escaped the Sacred Realm for TWW, and when he escaped, the people asked the gods for help, and they flooded Hyrule.

Quite incorrect. No where in TWW are the words "Sacred Realm," "Dark Realm," "Golden Land," et al. stated. All we know is that Ganondorf was sealed away. We don't actually know where he was sealed.

QuoteIn TP, NO ONE knew it was Ganon except for Link, MIdna, Zelda, Zant, and maybe king Bulbin. So why would they ask for help against an enemy they don't know about?

Oh I don't know, maybe because he was killing people and wreaking havoc all across the land, perhaps? Do you need to know who or what something is in order to be scared out of your mind about it?

QuoteThe split timeline has won, apparently.

You can't win an argument over a subjective opinion, my dear.

I jsut read past posts. If someone doesn't want to state thier opinion directly, they don't have to. You have no right to lock the topic for that reason until the debate is really over, not just stated by one member as over.

1. We can assume that Ganon was sealed in the Sacred Realm, but this is assumption.

2. Exactly. Few people in the Middle Ages truly knew exactly what the Black Death was (a disease) and thought it was a punishment by Jehovah, so they began whipping themselves on the street for forgivness. You don't need to know what it is to be scared of it.

3. Same with what Commodore said.