What do you think the true timeline of the Zelda games is, and why?
I'll spare you my own, it's well documented. ;)
OOS>OOA>MC>OOT>MM>LoZ>AoL>ALTTP>FS(GBA)>FS(GCN)>LA>WW
I was convinced by Master Gorons topic that MCis before OOT. I tink WW will always be the last game unless theres more with the great sea. I think that its the same LInk in the FS games as in ALTTP.
I've already given my partial theory in the other thread in here, so here's the whole thing:
1. OoA: In MC, Nayru is a descendant of Oracles from Labrynna.
2. OoS: In MC, Din comes from the land of Holodrum
3. MC: The origin of Link's hat, creation of the Four Sword. Vaati is searching for a "Light Force."
4. FS: Has to come sometime after MC, because of the four sword.
5. FSA: Vaati is reborned, Four Sword is reused.
Until this point(to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong) the Tri-Force hasn't been mentioned in context.
6. OoT: Has been the first, Nintendo said it was, let's put it here.
7. MM: A sequel to OOT
8. ALttP: Seemingly taking place after OOT, Ganon is trapped and sends Agahnim to bring the Dark World to power.
9. WW: After the events of ALttP, the Goddesses bring a fury of rains an flood the land.
10. LA: After sailing from the flooded Hyrule, Link discovers the island, and it is destroyed at the end.
11. LoZ: After destroying Kohilint Island, Link ends up in this New Hyrule, and defeats Ganon again.
12. AoL: This is the sequel to LoZ, so it has to go after it.
I don't know how you guys like it, but it flows. My only two problems are the fact that Link has his hat in the Oracles (but this could be a different Link), and that Biggoron is a legend in MC, and I don't know if he made an appearance in the prior games.
Edited to add Majora's Mask.
Biggoron is in the Oracles games, Minish, and of course OoT and MM (I think...).
I really like your timeline though, MG, how it splits up Hyrulian time between before the Triforce was discovered and after.
Well I havent gotten throgh the oracles yet, I just bought them so im not sure were to put them.
QuoteI think that its the same LInk in the FS games as in ALTTP.
Not very likely. In FSA Ganon is originally a Gerudo and he's a new enemy. In ALttP he's sealed in the Dark World, and there he's been for centuries. Plus, in FSA the maidens has REAL power. In ALttP they have lost their powers.
Anyway, my timeline theory goes like this:
OoT->MM->TWW->Zelda'05->LoZ->AoL->ALttP->LA.
I don't consider the Capcom games a part of Nintendo's timeline before I get some proof. One reason is that TMC argues with the legend of the creation of the Master Sword.
TMC, if it's a part of the timeline, can only be placed before OoT. So, it should take place about the same time the Master Sword was forged, right?
Here's the problem. The Picori Sword/Four Sword also have the power to repel evil AND it's powerful enough to defeat Ganon. Why forge a new blade like that when there already IS one?
The reason why I place ALttP after AoL is first of all because of Miyamoto's statement. Secondly, it's because of the seven Wise Men in AoL (yes, I know there's eight, but Old Kasuto was destroyed and the survivors built New Kasuto) and the fact that there's seven Wise Men in the legend at the beginning of ALttP. If you don't believe the badly translated English version, then look at the screenshots. They are all Hylians, and not of different species. There's little doubt in my mind that the seven Wise Men in the legend are descendants of the seven Wise Men in AoL.
As for TWW, the Deku Tree STATED that the Koroks were planting trees on the islands because as the forests grew, so would the islands. Therefore, they WILL revive Old Hyrule one day.
Yes, I know that Daphnes Nohansen wishes to the Triforce to drown Hyrule, but take a closer look. The Triforce splits up. What did Zelda say in OoT? That if one with a heart that's not in balance touches the Triforce it will split up. What did she also say? That if their heart is not in balance their wish won't come true.
Besides, I have this theory that if the wish of the one who touches it is not in balance their wish will last for seven years, but then fail.
Let's say if Link really is ten years in OoT. Then he should be 17 in the alternate universe. I'm pretty sure that he's old enough to be the Hero of Time when he's 16, or 15. So, why didn't he awake one or two years earlier? ???
OK, but FSA was made by Nintendo, and I wonder how you can place it there without MC or FS...
That doesn't mean it's a part of the timeline. Tetra's Trackers was also made by Nintendo, y'know. ;)
And Tetra's Trackers would be? I've never even heard of it...
Although, I don't see why they would make a game that didn't fit into the timeline. Oh well, your choice.
Tetra's Trackers (sometimes called Navi Trackers) was a game that was going to be a stand-alone puzzle game featuring the pirates and Tetra, and then it was going to be in Four Swords Adventures. It was eventually cut from the American version.
I have a little write-up on it (http://desertcolossus.com/guide.php?page=zelda10/navitrackers&menu=x) if you want to check it out.
The link didn't work... all I got was the little AIM guy.
But OK, thanks. I guess if it was part of FSA, you could group 'em together or something.
I made a new timeline, it goes like this:
Ocarina of Time 400
Majora's Mask 401
The Wind Waker 1000
Legend of Zelda 1030
Adventure of Link 1031
Oracle of Ages 1100
Oracle of Seasons 1101
The Minish Cap 1145
Four Swords 1146
Four Swords Adventures 1147
A Link to the Past 1200
Link's Awakening 1230
(The dates are guesses)
What do you guys think? Also, does anyone know any facts from the games that contradict this timeline? That would be great to know.
The one's I'm having the hardest time placing is ALttP and LA.
Contradicts? Well, I suppose the legend of the Hero of Men kinda contradicts. It's about that time the Hylians got their powers, so it's without a doubt before OoT. And TMC is directly linked to that legend. It's the same way as ALttP is linked the the Imprisonning War, OoT is linked to the Great War and TWW is linked to the Flood.
And in FSA, the Gerudos kicks Ganon out of their village because he's evil. That hints that it's before OoT because they didn't do that in OoT. I believe that's because in OoT Ganon is already too powerful.
Anyway, I have a new timeline theory. I've decided to accept the Capcom games as a part of the timeline (and henceforwards I refer ton FSA as HA, as that's actual name for the quest. FSA is also Shadow Battle and Tetra's Trackers, in Japan).
And I'll also add dates, although there aren't any official dates.
0- Din, Nayru and Farore creates Hyrule.
808- Hero of Men (Link I) defeats Ganon and his hordes of evil with the Picori Sword and the Light Force.
1688- Link II goes on a quest to defeat Vaati and break the curse on Princess Zelda II.
2078- Vaati returns and kidnaps innocent maidens. An unknown hero appears, wielding the legendary Four Sword. He defeats Vaati and the Four Sword is christened and laid to rest in the Four Sword Sanctuary.
2756- A mysterious person (Shadow Link) appears and kidnaps the seven maidens who protects the Four Sword Sanctuary. Link III takes the Four Sword, which results in him freeing Vaati. He goes on a quest to resque the maidens and defeat Vaati, but eventually discover he has to face an older and far more eviller villain before all is over.
3009/3689- Hyrule is in a Golden Age. During this period the Master Sword is forged.
3965/3990- The Great War takes place. After centuries of chaos, a King unifies Hyrule into one kingdom once again.
3996/4003- Link IV goes on a quest to collect the Spiritual Stones. Seven years in the future Ganon has conquered Hyrule and Link has to awaken the Sages. At the end, Zelda sends him back to his own time.
3998- Link IV travel to Termina and saves the land from a falling moon. Afterwards, he return to Hyrule.
4699- Ganon somehow return to Hyrule and wages war on the kingdom. The people has no choice but to pray to the Goddesses, who commands a few chosen to seek refuge at the mountaintops when the flood the lands with pouring rain aand seals it under the ocean.
5388- Link V goes on a journey to save his sister, Aryll.
6975- It is not known if this is in a resurfaced Old Hyrule or in New Hyrule, but a Golden Age comes to close when a King dies and his son, whose heart is not in balanced, becomes King. A wicked wizard casts a sleeping spell on Princess Zelda VI.
7556- Ganon somehow returns and invades Hyrule, winning back the Triforce of Power in the process.
7608- Link VI collects the eight shards of the broken Triforce of Wisdom and defeats Ganon.
7616- A mysterious mark appears on Link VI's hand. He goes on a quest to return six crystals to the Palaces of Hyrule, in order to dispell the barrier that protects the Great Palace, where the Triforce of Courage is. Link VI breaks the curse on Zelda VI.
8211- Link VII travels to Holodrum and Labrynna to save the two countries.
9005- Ganon declares war on Hyrule and attacks Hyrule Castle. Seven Wise Men seals him off into the Dark World.
9556- Link VIII goes on a journey to win the three Pendants of Virtue and the Master Sword, which he needs to slay the dark priest, Agahnim. With his last breath, Agahnim sends Link to the Dark World where he travels to the seven palaces to rescue the maiden and eventually defeat Ganon.
9558- When he's out sailing, Link VIII enters a thunderstorm and when he awakens he's on an island the inhabitants call Koholint. To get away from the island, he explores eight dungeons to win the eight instruments he needs to wake up the Wind Fish.
This theory needs some explaining. According Zelda in HA, Ganon is the reincarnation of an ancient daemon. That's why I put him as the main enemy in the legend of the Hero of Men.
This theory is based on Miyamoto's statement that ALttP takes place after AoL, which I think makes perfect sense. *cough*The Wise Men*cough*
ALttP can't be before OoS and OoA because the master sword is in both those games, but at the end of ALttP it says the master sword sleeps forever.
I also believe that LoZ and AoL come before MC because the Four Sword is a beefed up White Sword. That explains the backstory of MC.
And I know ALttP goes before LA(at some point) and that LA takes place in the Great Sea. But I can't seem to place it near enough to WW to make sense.
well....it's kinda hard because basically it's way to long ;D xD
QuoteALttP can't be before OoS and OoA because the master sword is in both those games, but at the end of ALttP it says the master sword sleeps forever.
I also believe that LoZ and AoL come before MC because the Four Sword is a beefed up White Sword. That explains the backstory of MC.
1. The Master Sword is not a part of the quest. It just is there. Why do you think it isn't in the mangas? ;)
2. I can't remember which series, but someone once mentioned a series of games where there is a sword (like the Master Sword) that's laid to rest FOREVER in, like, every second game. Forever is not long in video games.
3. The Picori Sword doesn't become the White Sword before after it's reforged. I don't doubt it's the same sword as the one in LoZ, but LoZ has to be a long time after it's forgotten and lost its power to split the wielder into four.
I have found something wrong with the timeline. In Minish Cap, you do see the Oracles in the inn. The say that they have traveled a lot. You can get a figurine of Din, and it says that she is a famous singer from the land of Holodrum. Your timeline says that she traveled from Hyrule to Holodrum, but the game clearly says that she is not from Hyrule. Therefore, I believe that the Oracle games occured before Minish Cap.
But how do you know it's the same Din. It says that she comes from a line of OoS, so the Din in the Oracles might be a descendant of the Din in TMC.
But it say that "She is a dancer from the land of Holodrum" Meaning that's where she was there before she was in Hyrule(during TMC).
That's what I'm saying. Also, Farore's figurine desrcription says that people take advantage of her kindness. Do you not take advantage of her kindness with the secrets?
Neither of those are real evidence. Like Din and Nayru, I bet Farore also is descended from a line of oracles, and she's the Oracle of Seasons.
As for Din being a dancer, that's most likely just coincidental. It could be a tradition in her family. Besides, they are clearly based on their relatives in the Oracles, so wouldn't it make sense if she's a dancer?
Furthermore, those guys in the travelling troup are Hylian Knights. That links the Oracles to ALttP. If you beat a linked game, and then start over again with the password you got after beating the second game (let's say you started with OoS, just to make it simple) and if you talk with the members of the travelling group they will say that they're Hylian Knights.
here's my timeline:
OoT>MM>ALttP(this game should come b4 Tp)>WW>LoZ>MC>Oracles>LA
Quote from: Master Goron
quote]1. OoA: In MC, Nayru is a descendant of Oracles from Labrynna.
2. OoS: In MC, Din comes from the land of Holodrum
i havnt played the OoA games , but does that mean 2 godesses are born there , and that they have parents? i always thought the were like (suposedly)God , just always there and created life?
what happened to the third goddes?
There are three Oracles. Farore is the Oracle of Secrets and appear in both games. They aren't the Goddesses, because they are of a line of oracles. They just share same name as the Goddesses.
I am sure OoT came first. Since at the end of WW they search for the new hyrule that is the hyrule in All of the 2D games.
I think it goes like this OOT > MM > TP> TWW > PH > MC > FS > FSA > LTTP > OOA > OOS > LA > LOZ > AOL.
QuoteI am sure OoT came first. Since at the end of WW they search for the new hyrule that is the hyrule in All of the 2D games.
That's not confirmed. The Japanese version of the Imprisonning War looks pretty much like OoT, which would put ALttP before the Flood. The flaw, though, is that in ALttP Ganon has the whole Triforce. Another teory is that TP is based on the Imprisonning War.
The 'source of evil' the Wise Men, according to the Japanese version of ALttP, sealed may be the Twilight Realm. Another possibility is that the Twilight Realm is the evil that flows from the Dark World. That makes sense because in the Japanese version of ALttP it's said that 'Ganon's malice' attacked Hyrule Castle, and that's exactly what we see in the third trailer to TP. This may mean that Ganon is directly involved with the spreading of the Twilight Realm.
Another theory I have actually makes OoT into a much later game than most timeline theories. It may sound like a stupid theory, but if you really look into it, there's absolutely no way to disprove it, which makes it a legit timeline theory.
LoZ, AoL->OoS/OoA->OoT, MM->TP->ALttP, LA->TWW, PH
Yes, you didn't read wrong. That's the timeline theory. It started out as a joke, which I could use against anyone who calls OoT Link the 'original' Link, but then I realized it actually IS a possibility.
You may have noticed the timeline doesn't include TMC and the two FS games. There's a reason for that. It's nearly impossible to guess where they are. The only hint is the Zuna, and if the theory that Agahnim is a Zuna is correct FSA should be after ALttP.
Hmm... that gives me an idea. Ganon is more or less destroyed in ALttP. Maybe his spirit survived and he was reincarnated as a Gerudo in time for FSA? Then, some time after FSA the Four Sword is placed somewhere underground or within a mountain and Ganon breaks free and attacks Hyrule in a red wrath, and then the gods flood the lands.
Now for the placement of the NES games and the Oracles. I know what some of you might say. OoT was the first time Ganon attacked Hyrule. Had he attacked before the King wouldn't have trusted anyone with Ganon in their names. OoT tells of the creation, so it has to be first.
1. We don't know that. We don't even know if Ganon was born in that era. All we know about his past is that the Twinrova sisters are his surrogate mothers. Now, how do we define surrogate? My guess is that they resurrected him through childbirth. That would suggest that he may not have been a Gerudo in his past life.
2. For all we know, there may have been several Gerudo kings called Ganondorf. A name isn't enough to distrust someone. For all the King care, Ganon was a DAEMON/Moblin who was killed several centuries ago, and isn't likely to return.
3. So does ALttP. OoT mentions the creation because it's important to the story, not because it's the first game.
So, this is how I've summed it up. The gods created Hyrule several millenniums before the first game. The next part is just speculation, but it's likely. The Hylia probably woke up far away from Hyrule (as that's how it always start, and they cannot settle down at one place before they have mastered agriculture), and then probably heard about a chosen Kingdom. They travelled for many centuries (most likely it would go very slowly as they are many and they would probably camp at certain places and stay there for years before moving on) and eventually reach Hyrule. I like to think that they made their first settlements near Lake Hylia, because the lake is named after them.
Eventually Hyrule was fonded and she prospered for many years; it became an age of many legends and the forging of many magical artefacts.
I bet you anything this is the age when the legendary Goron hero killed Volvagia, and the Master Sword was forged. I also bet that the legend of the Picori comes from this age.
It eventually started to go downhill about the time the legend of the Sleeping Princess takes place. Remember that OoT never says the gods left Triforce in the Golden Land. It only says that the ground where the Triforce rested became sacred. It could have ended up in the hands of the Royal Family without them having to somehow get to the Golden Land (which may have been created by a future Master of the Triforce). It's also never been stated that Ganon was the first to touch it, so don't claim he was. ;)
Anyway, after Hyrule was sepparated into several kingdoms the lands eventually entered an Age of Darkness when Ganon invaded Hyrule from a 'world of evil' and took the Triforce of Power. Because it's described as an Age of Darkness in the manual, I assume the wars lasted several centuries before Link came and defeated the Prince of Darkness.
With Ganon's death peace eventually returned to Hyrule, but Link went on another quest to get the Triforce of Courage. With the Triforce reunited Hyrule entered a new Golden Age.
Some time after AoL (probably a few generations) the Triforce was split again. The pieces were eventually found and placed in North Castle, which was later abandoned and through time the Ruto Forest eventually expanded and surrounded the castle. That's where the Oracles comes into the picture. Link is called by a strange force, travels to the ruins of North Castle, and is sent to either Holodrum or Labrynna.
Some time after the Oracles the Triforce is reunited (probably by another hero in a future game) and the Ancient Sages builds the Temple of Time to guard the gate to the Golden Land. Some time after that the Kingdoms of Hyrule are reunited by the King in OoT.
Then OoT takes place and Ganon is sealed in the Dark World. Some people believe in a split timeline after that, but I somewhat doubt Nintendo would make it that complicated for themselves. I have a theory that Link and Zelda (and possibly the Sages) aren't the only ones who remembers the seven years of darkness. That's how it's remembered in TWW.
Anyway, after that follows TP, and it's pretty much like I guessed above if it's based on the Imprisonning War. Several generations pass and then a priest sent by the Zuna, called Agahnim, comes to Hyrule to release Ganon.
He fails and several generations later the Zuna decides to invade Hyrule. They fail and are trapped in the Magic Mirror, except a few who flees into the Desert of Doubt where their descendant eventually forget the evil in the heart of their ancestors. Or they may not have been evil at all. They may simply have worshipped Ganon.
After that comes FSA, and eventually the Flood. I don't believe TWW will stay as the last game in the timeline. It just happened to fit best as the last game in the timeline in this theory. I'm sure there will be many games that takes place after TWW.
Quote from: Evilslayer on June 27, 2006, 05:11:06 AM
QuoteI am sure OoT came first. Since at the end of WW they search for the new hyrule that is the hyrule in All of the 2D games.
Another theory I have actually makes OoT into a much later game than most timeline theories. It may sound like a stupid theory, but if you really look into it, there's absolutely no way to disprove it, which makes it a legit timeline theory.
LoZ, AoL->OoS/OoA->OoT, MM->TP->ALttP, LA->TWW, PH
Yes, you didn't read wrong. That's the timeline theory. It started out as a joke, which I could use against anyone who calls OoT Link the 'original' Link, but then I realized it actually IS a possibility.
You may have noticed the timeline doesn't include TMC and the two FS games. There's a reason for that. It's nearly impossible to guess where they are. The only hint is the Zuna, and if the theory that Agahnim is a Zuna is correct FSA should be after ALttP.
Well, this is the only flaw. In TMC, OOA, and OOS show the three oracles: Din, Farore, and Nayru. TMC would surely be around the Oracles in this sense. Therefore, TMC comes around the Oracles.
The conter-evidence is the figurines. I don't know about Farore's, but Nayru's and Din's figurines says that one is from a line of Oracles and the other from a line of dancers.
Besides, what flaw? I didn't put TMC anywhere because it's nearly impossible to place it anywhere. Therefore it could for all I care take place close to the Oracles. :-*
Actually, it's because then you would have to find a place to put FS and FSA, and this could possibly mess up your timeline.
If you read the whole time I actually DID come up with a placement for FS and FSA. Because I believe Agahnim probably is a Zuna I found it fitting to be some time after ALttP.
Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing, but now I found a flaw. It says that, in LTTP, there was a horrible time of terror when Agnahim appeared. The sages couldn't find a source, and the king offered a reward to anyone who could save the kingdom. Agnahim then used strange magic to save the kingdom. Also, if you check out the Agahnim is Ganon topic in the LTTP section, you'll lose the thought of Agahnim being a Zuna. It's hard to keep the timeline together now.
P.S. Where would LA be in the timeline?
Allright, I have somethings to point out in this site's "Official"" History of the chronicles of Hyrule. I noticed quite a few flaws in how some elements of older games are reproduced and retconned as happening before the game where it originally came from. IE: That Link's uncle is in both LttP and the "Retconned" previous chapter. That doesn't really make ANY sense, because we have his uncle dying twice and Link not knowing about the whole thing.
While interesting, the entire Four swords saga should be disregarded completely, as it creates too many paradoxes from this game and LttP as happening twice, if that history were taken for thought and fact.
I honestly wouldn't take the original game as happening at all... Because too many elements from that game are featured in other games, esp. in Windwaker with the whole collect the triforce shards thing.
My whole outline of the history would be as such:
1. Ocarina of Time
2. Majora's mask
3. War post-Link's disappearance
4. Twilight princess (it should be this way since it's specifically stated that TP takes place AFTER OoT)
5. Several Centuries pass
6. Windwaker
7. Couple generations pass
8. Minish Cap
9. The Oracles Saga
10. About a century Passes
11. LttP
12. Link's Awakening
13. A few generations pass... with events leading up to Zelda II
14. Zelda II and the final long-awaited return of Link, or a possible descendant.
Granted, some of these might also be flawed, but this timeline at least removes some repeating paradoxes.
After the great flood, wouldn't the Garudo tribe be nonexistant?
It really makes more sense for it to be that way...
One more thing, some of the dungeons numbers in the history at this site are wrong.
Zelda II has 6, not 8 dungeons
Zelda I has 9 dungeons, the eighth was on Death Mountain, but NOT Spectacle rock. And some of this should be more clear about the Sheikah's sins and blood spilt as mentioned in the Shadow temple of OoT. Someone should really get creative and go into detail about that...
Like giving events PRIOR to OoT.
Any comments?
Email me here:
darkphantomime@yahoo.com
Zelda Vetran, both of your points are based on mistranslations. The Wise Men sealed the 'source of evil' (the King didn't command them to do anything in the Japanese version), and Agahnim is Ganon's HAND, which hints to him being controlled by Ganon rather than being his alter ego.
Quote from: darkphantomime on August 02, 2006, 12:05:14 AM
While interesting, the entire Four swords saga should be disregarded completely, as it creates too many paradoxes from this game and LttP as happening twice, if that history were taken for thought and fact.
It's a Zelda game. It's going to have paradoxes. And the paradoxes kind of make Zelda a good game to think about it, even if it gives me headaches sometimes.
I've honestly never played Four swords... I just decided to comment on what this site has as it's 'official' timeline. By the way, where'd they come up with that land to the west of Hyrule, Ce- something?
Calatia? I don't think that land can be considered canon. I know it was menioned in the Valiant comics.
Seriously, man, that thing needs to be changed in order to make it all have some sense instead of conflicting paradoxes...
Anyway, If someone made a game featuring the war of Hyrule before OoT, what do you think it would be like? Personally I think it would be rather morbid and gothic. I always thought of that time as a time of blood lust and death... Remember the shadow temple where all those walls talk to you and you hear voices?
Yeah, that was awesome! And It would be really cool to actually fight a gigantic war, with knights of hyrule fighting alongside you. If you've watched the trailor for TP you will notice some awesome horseback combat scenes. The war would be like that, only a lot thincker with monsters. Possibly a meter to show how long you have to fight to draw them back. It would really be cool. Also, great points Darkphantomime! :)
My timeline is this
OoT=>MM=>TP?=>ALttP=>AoL=>OoS/OoA=>LA=>LoZ=>WW=>PH?=>MC=>FS/FSA?
I put TP after MM cuz Nintendo said it would, but i'll probably change it.I put ALttP right after OoT because it's almost the exact same game. The reason I put Aol==>La is cuz I think AoL link was just a random kid then when he finished his adventure, Zelda, or the Triforce, sent him to Holodrum then Labrynna cuz of the story. Because at the begining of OoS/OoA someone or something said accept are challenge hero. Then I think he was a star and decided to return to Hyrule. Then he did the LA quest.After that, I think he got lost at sea. I put Loz before WW cuz at the begining of WW it shows Ganon coming from the Death Mountain. WW happens, Link and Tetra/Zelda go find a new Hyrule. Ph happens maybe? I dunno. Then they land of the mainland of the Minish Cap that's why I think Link and Zelda are good friends. I haven't played the FS series but I think it takes a while after MC cuz Vaati's back. 8) 8)Confusing? :-X :-X ;D ;D
Quote from: Knil on August 14, 2006, 12:45:10 PM
My timeline is this
OoT=>MM=>TP?=>ALttP=>AoL=>OoS/OoA=>LA=>LoZ=>WW=>PH?=>MC=>FS/FSA?
I think this is pretty close bu I dont think fsa is last, I think TP is and I think LoZ is before LA
Makes sense. That's why I put the ? after FS/FSA cuz I haven't played those games( no friend who likes Zelda). The only reason I put Tp after MM is b/c Nintendo said it would go there and of the horse, but we can't know for sure. AoL=>OoS/OoA=>LA would make more sense after WW. I put it before LoZ to give Old Hyrule a bigger geography.
Yeah I havent either but I know thee story of fsa. I didnt know mintendo said that. I always pictures it last...Did they say directly after? Or sometime after?
QuoteOoT=>MM=>TP?=>ALttP=>AoL=>OoS/OoA=>LA=>LoZ=>WW=>PH?=>MC=>FS/FSA?
That timeline doesn't make sense. For one, there's the same Link LoZ as in AoL. That's stated in the manual. The Link in the Oracles can't be the same because the Triforce is separated and hidden in an ancient castle (which I believe to be North Castle) while it was whole at the end of AoL.
Impa is also vastly different, and she doesn't recognize Link.
Quote from: darkphantomime on August 02, 2006, 12:05:14 AM
IE: That Link's uncle is in both LttP and the "Retconned" previous chapter. That doesn't really make ANY sense, because we have his uncle dying twice and Link not knowing about the whole thing.
Wait, where did I write that? That's not right...
What i think is the right timeline.
TMC >> OoT (Timesplit) MM >> ALLTP >> LA >> FS >> FSA >> OOS >> OOA.
TP >> TWW >> PH >> LoZ >> AOL.
(Did i miss something?) :-\
1. Link goes defeat Vaati and seals him, in the sword. (I saw someone who asked, that why they have the Four Sword and creates The Master Sword? Because if someone takes the Four Sword out, Vaati will break free, so they had to create a new holy sword.)
2. Link travels in time and defeats Ganondorf in the future, causing a time paradox. Zelda sends Link back to his original time.
3. Link saves Termina from be destroyed by the moon.
4. Ganondorf finds the Triforce ( And about in the intro, who tells about The Imprisoning War, is not about OoT, because if it was the retelling of OoT, it would say, that Ganondorf only got power and got defeated by a boy, who hold The Sword Of Evil Bane. But it says that they could not find anyone, who could be the holder of the sword, so it is another story.) and gets sealed in the Dark World by the 7 Wise Men. ................. And Link kills Ganon and claims The Triforce.
5. Link awakens in Koholint Island and must wake The Wind Fish. Link fought the Nightmares and the Island disapperes. (I am pretty sure its after ALTTP, because one of Link's nightmares, is Aghunim and Ganon.)
6. The seal has weakend and Vaati kidnaps Zelda, so Link takes the Four Sword and seals Vaati in the Four Sword again.
7. Months after FS, Shadow Link kidnaps the 7 maidens and Zelda. Link takes the Four Sword and has freed Vaati. Link defeats Vaati and Ganon in the end.
8. Link steps into Hyrule Castle and The Triforce gives him a Quest. Link gets transfered to Holodrum and meets Din, The Dancing Girl, but gets kidnapped by Onox. Link defeats Onox in the end.
9. Link meets Nayru, but she got kidnapped by Veran. Link travels through time and defeats her. But Twinora used the remaning souls from Onox and Veran, to resurret Ganon! Link defeats Ganon and peace returns.
Now we take The Future Timeline.
1. Link must save Hyrule, from the darkness that has covered Hyrule, called The Twilight Realm. (We dont know what is going to happend at the end.)
2. Hyrule has been flooded and Link finds Hyrule under The Great Sea. Link finds The Master Sword and uses it to defeat Ganon. The King said that Hyrule shall still be under the sea and tells Link and Zelda, to find a new land.
3. (I have no info about PH. But it is confirmed, that it takes place some months after TWW.)
4. Link must find the 8 pieces of the Triforce Of Wisdom and free Zelda. Link kills Ganon and gets the Triforce Of Power.
5. Impa tells Link, the story about how sleeping princess and has to find the Triforce Of Courage. Link defeated Shadow Link and gets the Triforce Of Courage. Link uses the Triforce piece to awake Zelda and so the legend ends.
Okay, so that "TP >> TWW >> PH >> LoZ >> AOL." is not after the Oracle games? Because if it was, TP takes play only a couple of decades after OoT, and there's no way ALttP and all of that can happen between OoT and TP.
Also, I noticed you said Nayru was kidnapped by Veran. That's incorrect. Veran possessed Nayru. That's not kidnapping.
And the point you made in ALttP about how OoT isn't the Imprisoning War, legends change over time. The Imprisoning War could very well by OoT, but with many twists in it.
I see... Thanks for telling me that. ;D
Hmm, I wonder why so many people are lead to believe that Minish Cap takes place first in the timeline, when there is in fact, very little possibility of that, and nothing in OoT hints that the previous game could have been Minish Cap. The same could be said the other way around, as no prominent race that plays a major role in OoT appears in Minish cap.
Because some things are similar, to OoT. Like the Ocarina! Its blue, but it is used to call a bird, to transport Link, to other places fast. I know its name is Ocarina Of Wind, but the Goddesses, could have changed its powers, so it became the Ocarina Of Time. Wait.... The Goddesses just dont turn it back like that! Maybe TMC was after MM, because in ALTTP, Link also gets a Ocarina, that calls a bird, to transport him, fast to another place, or.....? :-X
I'll post my theory soon, but just to keep you occupied:
FSA comes before ALTTP. The Trident is all the evidence I need.
And TMC could easily be before OOT. The fact most races aren't in it, doesn't mean they don't exist. Why would Ganondorf want the Triforce if he could get the equally powerful Lightforce, something that does not get shattered? If we put TMC first, then it is explained why he didn't try to get it or possibly even knows of it: because Vaati still has it and he is locked away. The Hylian shield of OOT might be the last reference to it before it gets completely forgotten. Because TP's Hylian Shield is without a fourth triangle, possibly because people forgot about it and just removed "that awkward, pointless thing" from the shield's design.
OOT could come earlier, but TMC has a bigger chance of being first. Besides, just because OOT once was the first game doesn't mean it will forever be.
Heh, not really a very valid point. I always thought that the lightforce was basically the same thing as the triforce. Your gonna haveto go a whole lot more in depth. People can be easily swayed by the appearance of a new game, that it could be the first. When in fact, there is very little evidence to support that conclusion.
uuum, say what? "People can be easily swayed by the appearance of a new game, that it could be the first"? There are people out there who believe the first game is in fact the first legend. Besides that, after OOT, SEVEN games have been released. And except for TMC, no one believes one of them could be before OOT.
Why wouldn't it be a valid point? There's more reason to assume TMC comes before OOT than the other way around. Or do you have any reasons to assume otherwise? Please tell them, discussion is always good.
Finally, the Lightforce and the Triforce are not the same. They may be the same thing together, but in their current states, they are not. The Lightforce has the power of the Triforce, but was being held by Zelda only, and Vaati took most of it with him when he got imprisoned. So that means no one after that could have it, while the Trifroce clearly does get into Ganondorf's, Link's and Zelda's possesion. Do I need to go on?
Maybe The Lightforce, is the source, that Zelda can use powerfull magic...
Heh... actually if you look in most of the other early zelda games, we see that the triforce hasn't really been divided among 3 people.
I think it's more likely to assume that the Minish Cap takes place post Windwaker and Phantom Hourglass. The fact is, there is no direct conclusion of exactly WHERE it could be in the tiimeline, so for all we know it takes place before the Oracles.
Actually, when you think about it, before OoT was released, LttP was thought to be the first. The reason was is that it actually took place a century BEFORE the original Legend of Zelda.
It's probably more practical and simpler to just place OoT as first, as it's really the one that we've seen to have the most evidence for being the first in the entire timeline. Minish Cap actually places more along the lines of a gaiden, a sidequest. After all, the actual corruption of Hyrule, as it has been, has always been in the lines of Ganon. Vaati is a relatively new character, so it's a little contradictory to assume him as the first, and hence, primary evil force.
I'm giving my opinion on the timeline tomorrow. I need to go sleep soon. Anyway, what you are saying is that the Triforce and Lightforce could be the same thing? Then we're still missing the middle part. What happened with it and why.
Why do people think Ganon is the true baddy? He may have the oldest rights in our world, but what about Hyrule? We do not know. In fact, looking at the "evidence" in FSA, I'd say they're pretty equal. Vaati even possibly outsmarted Ganon in FSA.
I do not care about the bigger storyline, because it only exists out of minor connections between the indiviual games. Just give me ONE reason/theory why OOT would have to be before TMC. That's all I ask.
1. We see Link grow up to be who he is, at the beginning, there is no legend stating the possibility of previous heroes. On the other hand, with TMC it's stated that there was at least ONE previous hero. Which is evidence enough for me. It's even more likely that the power of the master sword was transformed into the four sword, rather than the other way around. Because then we see the Four sword and mastersworld alternating betwixt each other.
We see the introduction of Link and all the important themes displayed in OoT, while with MC, it's more along the lines that your already familiar with that type of play...
Not to mention, but the Oracles from the Oracle games appear as a cameo.
What we actually have here with OoT, is the origins story, and the point at which all notable characters first appear.
And besides...
If minish cap were first, then I've got a hunch that OoT can't be second.
Another thing, OoT is the only point at which the war dividing hyrule is mentioned. We don't see that kind of history with any other game, except with the possible exception of MM.
Well, I have no general opinion, seeing as how you guys confuse the hell outta me :-X Im just going to say that i beleive OoT came first. I know I know, its cleched, but it makes a lot of sense. I believe the Last one in the series is LoZ.
i Think that AOL is the last one. He needs to find The Triforce Of Courage and Ganon, has to be resurrected, by dropping blood, of the one who killed him.
Sorry, not possible. AOL clearly comes after LOZ.
Df: Do you honestly believe that whatever game came first, featured the first Link? Even if OOT would be the first game, I highly doubt that was the first Link. (In fact, I never believed he was the first Link even before TMC was released.) There is sort of a mentioning of an earlier hero. One that apparently failed, looking at Kaepora Gaebora's awkward quote in the beginning of the game. One thing is for certain, the world of Hyrule has been there for a very long time already and bad things already happened in the past. It's not unlikely a hero emerged before.
The Four Sword and the Master Sword are definetely not the same sword. In FSA, Ganon got locked up inside the Four Sword and escaped somewhere between then and ALTTP. Wouldn't it have been wise for him to take the sword with him when he escaped, if that was the one sword that could defeat him? There are times I question his intelligence, but I do not think he would leave such an important device just lying when he escaped. And I also highly doubt he is the one who hid the Master Sword in the forest.
And I repeat again: OOT is not about the beginning of the world. There have been ages, millenia before that.
Same thing goes for the Oracles. They seem to me just ancestors of the ones from OOx. They could be the same ones, but you gotta admit a lot of other characters at least cannot be the same ones. So why would they be? I repeat, ancestors of the ones of OOx, not the same.
And why couldn't TMC be before the war? I don't know of any time-related quotes that say: "And Hyrule was founded after the war of races."
Quote from: Darkpuppet fears on October 06, 2006, 02:28:48 PM
It's even more likely that the power of the master sword was transformed into the four sword, rather than the other way around. Because then we see the Four sword and mastersworld alternating betwixt each other.
Isnt the name of the intro sword, Picori Blade? I dont think that The Master Sword, turned into, The Four Sword.
I might as well post my theory then.
pre-AOL story > TMC > OOT > MM > TP > TWW > PH > FS > FSA > ALTTP > LA > TLOZ > AOL
Yes, I have not played OOA or OOS. Sorry for that, but just how much could they change my theory anyway? I know bits of them, nothing too big. Just put them wherever you think they should be.
Most of this is based on what is NOT said in the games/manuals, because lots of people accept things as fact, when they are never even suggested. This is just my view on the real facts, so still nothing better, but at least not based on false facts.
First, the gods (!) created the worlds. I say gods, because I don't think the three goddesses were the only ones creating "the world". Termina was created by the Giants, who decided to stay rather than leave. We know there are more gods, so I doubt they didn't do anything. As for Termina, I think it's just another country, only the border being not land, but dimension. Not much of a difference really.
The Goddesses created the lands of Hyrule-to-be and left. They left the Triforce as we know it, or the Triforce with a fourth piece or they left both the Triforce and the Lightforce. Note, they left them in Hyrule-to-be, not in the Sacred Realm. The quote never stated it was placed in the Sacred Realm. It said that land BECAME the Sacred Realm, but it is never said when that happened or why.
A lot of centuries pass. Hyrule is created and its royal family claimed the Triforce and possibly Lightforce. At this time, the pre-events of AOL happen. Until that point, noone ever realised the bad things the power could do. It is decided that the Triforce will be locked away, only allowed to be used once more to awaken Zelda or if really needed. The Council of Sages is created, and with the help of the gods, they create the Sacred Realm, and with the help of the people, the temples. This is based on the question why the Temples were built all of a sudden. Why and when were they created? It is never mentioned in the games and is quite strange if you think about it. I think around this time, the Four Sword and Master Sword are created for similar reasons: to protect the world against the powers of the Forces if necessary. However, because only the princess knew where the missing triangles were, it takes a few generations before they are found, thus explaining why Zelda isn't awakened back then: because she's kind of forgotten. Or it is because the war started, assuming the Triforce was not completely retrieved during the events of TMC, which is not unlikely. I believe during this time there may have been a Link, but he failed to help the princess. That would explain why Kaepora Gaebora made that remark about not believing in the hero. Because that earlier Link, during KG's time as a Sage, failed. IT IS NEVER SAID THE HERO WILL WIN. Many Links could've in fact failed their quest.
The events of TMC happen. I think this is the first legend, because of the fact the Four Sword is not used to repel Ganon's evil; only the Master Sword is. Those swords are incredibly similar (very likely created by the same people at the same time, or at least at the same time) there must be a reason why it was never used to defeat Ganon or why it wasn't "brought into safety" like the Master Sword when Hyrule got flooded. Because it still was needed to keep Vaati imprisoned! Also, if the Light Force got lost because Vaati took the biggest part with him when he got imprisoned, it might explain why it is never mentioned in later games: it is forgotten. With OOT being the next legend, the bridge is made. After all, the designs of Zelda's dress and the Hylian Shield could be old references to the Light Force, which nobody understands anymore. Therefore, the design of the Hylian Shield gets changed somewhere between OOT and TP, because no one knows why that fourth triangle is there in the first place.
War of the races. Possibly the final missing piece is retrieved around this time.
OOT happens. I'm not gonna explain why I put OOT this early, because I assume most of you can think of about a zillion reasons yourself. After Link defeated Ganon, Zelda gives him back the seven years he missed. She sends him back to the moment he travelled to the future/present for the last time. After all, the sword sends him back to the last point each time too. This way, he gets a chance to live those seven years while nothing else chances. His at that time sleeping self will save Hyrule after seven years. I don't get why people claim a paradox gets created, or different timelines. One timeline works perfectly. Link gets send back WITH the Ocarina (Zelda said "Close the Door". How is he supposed to do that without the Ocarina if he needed that to open the door in the first place?) and a few other items. The ending of OOT never happened, but is just a memory, because when should it happen? Did she send him back to the moment he first entered Hyrule? First of all, she would be stealing part of his life then, and I don't think she would do that. It would also be dangerous, because then he would be able to ruin it for his younger self. What I think happened is that Link got send back to the earlier described moment. Navi left, and Link started a search for Zelda (who fled with Impa). He eventually found her and spent some time with her. A month would be believable. He then decided to search for Navi, possibly also realising he couldn't stay much longer without effecting the timeline. He borrowed Epona and set off.
There is no paradox, because everything that is now doubled because Link brought it back with him (including Link himself), will be unique again when the adult hero Link gets send back in time after defeating Ganon. Also, some say doubles aren't possible, but they already happened in the game itself. Link did return a few times to the moment his other self is sleeping, thus creating a double.
Events of MM. After that, Link keeps Epona for a short while and then sends her back. It's a smart horse after all. She can find her own route. What exactly happened is unclear, except that he himself never returned home. Maybe he died?
Events of TP. What's to say about a game I haven't even had the chance to play yet?
Events of TWW. Apparently, almighty gods who leave symbols of their power for the mortals, power that we know can do almost everything, are incapable of finding a better solution to imprison a "mere mortal" than to flood the entire kingdom. And it still doesn't keep him imprisoned! Anyway, after this, Link and Tetra set sail to find the new Hyrule, only to get caught up in the
Events of PH. Again, there's nothing to be said.
Hyrule gets deflooded. After all, water apparently does NOT keep Ganondorf imprisoned. Keeping the place flooded only takes up precious space and is not beneficial in any way.
I guess somewhere around here Vaati escapes for the first time and is once more imprisoned by Link.
Events of FS. Not much to say about this. Just that the pre-story described in it could never ever be TMC, like some people tend to think.
Events of FSA. The reason I put this before ALTTP is the obvious hint that this is when he acquired the Trident he had in ALTTP. There is one thing about this story though that's interesting: it's very possible that Vaati after this is free to do whatever he would want to. Let's look at the facts: the Four Sword is very similar to the Master Sword and both are said to be able to repel evil, not destroy it. While they may be able to destroy lesser evil, embodiments like Ganon and Vaati cannot be destroyed by them. Vaati has been imprisoned three times already. Does anyone honestly think all of a sudden the sword would be able to destroy him now? Vaati may have been used by Ganon, but he's not stupid. And the inhabitants of Hyrule are not very subtle about "there being a bigger force than Vaati". It's just an idea, but I think Vaati noticed that. Or he noticed the hordes of henchmen that were not his. Either way, I think he just faked death in FSA, knowing Ganon wouldn't leave Link much time to question the ease with which he "killed" Vaati. I have no idea though what could've happened to him eventually. He still has most of the Lightforce.
Events of ALTTP. To everyone who believes OOT is not the pre-story mentioned in ALTTP, sorry, but it is. Except for two things, it all fits and we can blame those misfits on the enormous time between OOT and ALTTP. All the other differences are based on bad translations. I do wonder how he escaped the Four Sword and what happened in between. It does get a bit foggy here though, since Link had the complete Triforce at the end, but Ganon has the ToP at the beginning of TLOZ. Maybe Vaati messed up something, trying to regain his power with Ganon out of the way. Anyway, the Triforce is split again and the ToC is hidden to make sure the power of the Triforce won't be misused again.
Events of LA. I don't have any particular reason to put it here. It was released after ALTTP and introduced as its sequel, so I guess I could just as well put it here.
Events of LOZ. Generations later again. Ganon (I have no clue how he came back to life. Possibly the same ritual needed to revive him in AOL) gives it another try, but is once more stopped and supposedly killed.
Events of AOL. With the bigger evils finally gone and a hero present, the time has come to awaken she who survived the ages. The scroll Link gets "was talking" to him, right? I guess that was a telepathical message from that little imp dude. What else could've been his role? I mean, he's locked up in this dungeon infested by monsters. Where does he get food? Why is he there? He could summon Shadow Link, so I guess he's pretty powerful. So I assume he was talking to Link through the scroll. The "I" in the scroll appeared/appears to be pretty powerful too. I do admit I did everything in my power to come up with a theory to put the pre-story of AOL at the beginning, because that feels like it should be and makes quite a beautiful ending to the legend. The first victim of the power of the Forces finally awakens after the deaths of its biggest misusers. A nice symbol that this time, peace will be eternal.
Feedback will be highly appreciated. :)
Edit: D'oh, it took me so long to type all this that I didn't notice that you had posted new stuff... and you double posted! Fix it...
I guess you didn't really read what I had to say in full. The timeline as it is so far, with the games that HAVE been released, and the games that we are simply speculating MAY be released. So far, OoT has the strongest evidence of being the first game. The war of the races preceding OoT is very important, as it shows that the hyrule we know in all the games has yet to be founded.
The timeline may change if new games are released, but as it holds now, with what games have been officially released, OoT has the strongest part of being first in the series.
Heh, might we also consider that Ganon could've taken the sword in all the other games he was featured in? The simple thing is, that he cannot even TOUCH the sword that will eventually kill him.
And besides, MC was not developped 100% by nintendo, but rather by flagship. So the possibilities of it being first decrease rapidly. Not to mention, the minish appear in only that one game. If it were the first in the timeline, where are the minish in all the other games? And don't go by by telling me that the other Link's are incapable because they aren't children. A lot of them actually ARE children.
I double posted because it was too long to post al at once. So it is not a double post.
I'm sorry to say this, but I don't understand what you're saying. My fault, but could you please try to find other words? In what context do you feel it is necessary to mention games that may be released? I cannot find me saying anything about them.
What I do understand is that you consider there to be a "Hyrule as we know it". Isn't it constantly changing? I can't remember one game that featured the same Hyrule. I don't think Hyrule did not exist before the war. Like I said, not one quote ever stated Hyrule was founded after the war of the races. I think Hyrule comes from the time the temples were built and quite likely even earlier than that. Battle doesn't require much, but true war requires advanced races.
Compared with the other games, OOT indeed has a big chance of being the first, but there are other competitors. They are not really comparable to the other games, but could very well be before OOT. Nothing states they couldn't be. So, I'm not just assuming OOT is, "because it's easier", "more logical" or "because everyone seems to think that", because except for that last one, it's simply not true. I'm not saying TMC comes before OOT, but I consider it more likely.
Don't get sloppy, you got good arguments before. The sword cannot kill Ganondorf, merely imprison him or something. Never has Ganondorf been killed by the Master Sword and it is, for what I remember, never stated that evil cannot touch it. And he never took the sword before, because it was hidden and/or locked in a pedestal. But if the sword is just lying there, why wouldn't he take it?
SO what? Do you know how often a game is not entirely created by Nintendo? Do you think Nintendo says: "Make game and do with it whatever you want."? Who is the Nintendo you're talking about? Many different teams worked on tloz-games, supervised by a few people that have more to do with the entire story. But even they make up everything as they go. If what you say counts, wouldn't every tloz-game have been significantly different? Why are the games, why is their atmosphere, so much alike every time? Besides, you used the OOx games to "prove" TMC's position, and now you're saying we should disregard them too? I do not see how is decreases TMC's chances.
Wait a minute...are you saying a race not shown in an earlier game means they didn't exist yet? Off course they did, or very likely did. Or is TMC the final game? But, only TWW features the Rito! So sin't that the/a final game too? Because we haven't seen them any time else. Or the Zuna?
The Minish still are around. It is apparently the explanation why all those pots and stuff filled with items are everywhere. I don't know why Link doesn't encounter them anymore. I could think of a thousand reasons. Even for the children in The Minish Cap, it was very rare if they saw one. And Link only saw them after he met Ezlo.
Is it not, Silver Arrows, who can kill Ganon? :-\
OH CRAP
I hate it when it takes forever to load it, so if it takes too long to get to the server of TDC, I could lose my post before it gets posted!!! AARRRRRRRGGH!!!
Anyway, I was saying that you should give more complete evidence to support your case that MC could be the first game.
The prev. Hero that KG mentions could actually be a hero of the war preceding the events of OoT. The failed hero of the War dividing hyrule. That war intriques me much, because as we see in the Shadow temple, there is a lot of mention of a dark and bloody history filled darkness with that war. Such things intrique me greatly.
Evil simply cannot touch the thing that will put them away. It would destroy balance, and there would be no light. Darkness would rule over all if that were possible. Such facts are seen in an immense variety of other games of other series.
QuoteSo far, OoT has the strongest evidence of being the first game. The war of the races preceding OoT is very important, as it shows that the hyrule we know in all the games has yet to be founded.
It's LoZ with the strongest evidence of being the first game. We know from ALttP that the Master Sword was forged during the Hylian Age. In OoT it's already legendary, so Hyrule has been united before.
I should also add that it's speculation, not fact, that the war before OoT is between the races. It's unlikely, because the Gerudo couldn't fight the Hylians, Sheikah, Gorons and Zoras on their own. It's a war of unification, so most likely it expanded beyond the Death Mountain Area/Hyrule Summit and was between the many kingdoms of Hyrule.
In AoL it's mentioned that during the reign of the Ancient King Hyrule was one kingdom. I should also mention that according the Japanese manual to LoZ Hyrule is a region. So... in LoZ Hyrule is sepparated into many kingdoms. And because the Ancient King ruled with the help of the TRIFORCE Hyrule was in a Golden Age and it fits very well as the Hylian Age mentioned in ALttP.
Now I come to Ganon. Nowhere in OoT does it say, or even hint, that it's the first time Ganon attacks. In fact, Twinrova is his
surrogate mother, which leads me to think that she/they resurrected him through childbirth.
In LoZ, however, it's said that he comes from a 'world of evil'. Originally I thought it was the Dark World, but because the one who wrote the translation guide to LoZ at Zelda Legend made no references to the Dark World I wonder...
So, my guess is that that's the first time he invades, and this 'world of evil' is his home world.
Didnt Shigeru hint, that OoT, was one of the beginnings and LoZ is one of the last of the Timeline? :-\
Hl - Those Japanese dudes have said so much, I don't take anything for true anymore, unless it's specifically stated in the game or instruction manual. TWW just a hundred years after OOT? Don't make me laugh. Just what is meant by "one of the last/first"? Djeez...until fairly recently, they didn't even know where to put TP, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out it couldn't possibly fit between OOT and TWW. I think it's up to the fans rather than them to come up with a good timeline. After all, the creator puts the love in his work, the fan puts the life in it.
Df - I'll leave our discussion about TMC and OOT for now to the other topic, hoping to see it will get a few good replies to add to our discussion. If it doesn't, we can just continue here. :)
I do wish to reply though, that "other games" are not The Legend Of Zelda. I haven't seen one thing that could mean only the hero/a good person could touch it and evil never could. The swords are important, but not really vital. Link has been able to do "smaller" tasks without the swords, has been known to have to depend on other items too and best of all, can't even finish Evil with the any of the two swords. He needs the silver arrows to accomplish that. That means there are three weapons to defeat the Evil: Four Sword, Master Sword and Silver Arrows. Other weapons can buy quite some time, like other swords or Light Arrows. I don't think Evil is able to destroy them though, only weaken them (Sages, Royal Jewels). I'd also like to point out that no special weapons were needed to defeat/destroy Majora's Mask. So, no balance will be destroyed. And otherwise, the Deku Scrubs weren't evil in FSA, yet they were loyal to Ganon. Couldn't he have asked/ordered them to hide the sword somewhere the hero would really not be able to find it, if he really would be unable to touch it? The fact is, he never steals the swords, because he never knows where they are or is unable to steal them due to the "three items" security system. I think it's very likely though that he took the Four Sword with him when he escaped.
Es - I like to read your theories. While I do not always agree with them, you always prove to know all the background info.
I know the war is never stated to be one between the races, but due to a few quotes in OOT, I tend to think the war was for territory and rule. So not necessarily Gerudo vs. Goron, Zora vs. Hylian etc.., but definetely a war in which race mattered. If (either) TMC (or LOZ) would indeed come before OOT, it might suggest that it is the result of growing tensions as more and more races immigrated to the place known as Hyrule in OOT. I agree that the war (probably) has reached other places not shown in OOT.
Actually, I think Ganondorf originally was born Gerudo. One that in a time long gone by became the demon Ganon, and indeed once got resurrected by Twinrova. Because he really, really seems to like his Gerudo form. And it just seems weird if that form was not truly his, since Ganondorf doesn't look like the type that cares much for his looks.
It has been shown there are many dimensions in The Legend Of Zelda. I see them as more conveniently placed other countries/worlds in most cases. I think one of those dimensions was claimed by Ganon when he first appeared.
Too many things are lost in translation from Japanese to english. Because Japanese is a very hard language to translate properly. Don't go bashing Aenoma or Miyamoto, because they are the heads of the game development. Oftentimes when we don't realize something and get confused, they'll go on and help us out.
It's not 100 years, if you really want to know the facts of that interview, go over to zeldablog and read article "connections between Windwaker and TP" Blame the translators who make mistakes and can't translate worth crap.
If anything their words should be taken as canon, since they are the ones who create the games, and who go over every little detail.
We should also be a little weary over ingame translations, because things can get changed in localization. Making things awry for people who go over every little thing.
We get confused? I once read in an interview they don't even know for sure what timewise happened at the end of OOT.
A link to that article would be appreciated as I am unable to find it following your instructions (even when typing "twilight princess" rather than tp). I understand bad translations are not to be blamed on Aonuma and Miyamoto. Yet, I doubt all of them are bad translations. I mean, for the bit of Japanese I know, I know it's a tough language, but those translators really should be making up things to get that many and awkward mistranslations. And I somehow doubt that's the case.
Besides, does it make a difference? I say we shouldn't take their words for truth because it's bs. You say it's the translators' fault. In your case, that means we still can't trust "their words", so we cannot base any theory on anything outside the game, unless we know Japanese and can understand the interviews in their original language.
We can trust the english translations of OOT and younger games. ALTTP is a bit different, but I think the big line can be trusted and most mistakes can be spotted by going to zeldalegends' manual translation. But starting with OOT, the translation has been good. A game is first played to understand what it needs to be, and then translated by the same people who know both english and japanese. Also, if I can't trust the ingame translations, then what am I supposed to trust? Then nothing remains. I trust them, just because I trust the current way of translating and because I don't have a choice (neither do you).
http://www.zeldablog.com/2005/10/10/tps-connection-to-ww/
That's the article I mentioned.
What we have ingame, we can trust quite a bit. But when people go to such extents as to scrutinize over every little detail, then THAT's when we're asking for trouble. I mean, we had the problem connecting LttP and OoT because we had to go over every single word. I mean, we should be able to automatically put two and two together and say that sages = Wise men. You could also read Imprisoning war ambiguities for more on that.
http://www.zeldablog.com/category/timeline/
All of the articles provide much thought and conception. So take a read.
Thankies :)
I'll take that part back, but then I still know about eight different things "said" in different interviews I know are not true. All mistranslations? I'm prepared to believe so, but I still take "their words" only as secondary canon.
As for the OOT and ALTTP connection, for as far as I know there are only about two things that don't really match, and even they can match if you give it more than the initial thought about it. The rest is mistranslation. By now, I also think a few things mentioned in ALTTP do not solely refer to OOT. Especially the Seal part. I think that now also refers to FSA. I've already read that article once. I love Zeldablog and Zeldalegends for their articles and great theories. I don't alway agree (and hardly ever 100%) but they do make you think and look at the "evidence" again.
However, the difference between the details about that war and random other details is that we know where to look for the first's statements and can compare them as a group. All other details cannot be just related to eachother and should be individually treated. Therefor, they are harder to to compare and say: "well, these two details/events are the same", because we can't see the bigger picture like with the Imprisoning War.
Ladynintendo? It seems like, that you have a rival. http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?p=848
He says, that there are 2 timelines and i agree with him. Read it if you have VERY MUCH time.
I've read it already half way once, but for the fact he/they, like so many others, think OOT's timeline is very difficult while it is not, I didn't read 'til the end. I did now though, and I continue to say: there's no need for a split timeline. Time and the people that live in it, are unaffected by Link's time traveling. Link is not the one who manipulates time, time manipulates Link. Otherwise, he wouldn't be a child and an adult depending on the time he was is. And if we believe Link and Zelda's meeting at the end of OOT was true, then the game contradicts itself. Which it does anyway, so technically, split timelines and single timelines both are possible. OOT has no timeline if you think about it. But for what exists of it:
I don't understand everybody is overlooking one small fact that tells us: OOT's timeline can not be changed! Three words: Song of Storms. If time was a changeable thing in OOT, you could never have learned that song. At least not the way Link did. Things can only be locked up in time if time in unchangeable.
QuoteLadynintendo? It seems like, that you have a rival. http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?p=848
He says, that there are 2 timelines and i agree with him. Read it if you have VERY MUCH time.
So the King commanded Seven Sages and the Knights to seal the gate to the Land of the Golden Power.That guy bases some of it on mistranslations from ALttP. I think a split timeline might be interesting, but Nintendo hardly cares about the storyline. There's no way they would make it that complicated.
I have a timeline theory in the Theories topic Remotely possible... MC first?
I've now read that Split Timeline Theory (yes, the WHOLE article) and ind myself starting to believe in it. I don't agree with everything he say, like that there can't be a new Hyrule after TWW (no matter what Link and Zelda names 'New Hyrule', the resurrected Hyrule will still be Hyrule).
However, some of the other things he pointed out does make sense. Why defeat Ganon in the future if he can just seal him away in his own time if it doesn't create a split timeline? And then there's the feast at Lon Lon Ranch. That's pretty obviously AFTER Link returned to his own time.
I believe that the two different timelines are alternate dimentions, rather than two different timelines that exist next to each others. Zelda's comment about the road between times being closed when Link closes the Door of Times also makes me believe that it is possible to travel between the two dimentions.
Now, THAT would make an interesting theme for a future Zelda game, and possibly offer two-player gaming. Imagine a Zelda game where you have to travel between Child Timeline Hyrule and Adult Timeline Hyrule and you control TWO Link (one is Adult Link and the other Young Link) and you often have to switch between them to solve certain puzzles.
Anyway, I believe that the two timelines somewhat affects each others. At the moment I believe TP is the counterpart to ALttP, the Great Flood is the counterpart to Ganon's invation before LoZ, the shattering and hiding of the Triforce of Courage is the counterpart of the hiding of the Triforce of Courage in the Great Temple, and TWW is the counterpart of LoZ.
I'm not so sure about TMC, the FS duology or the Oracles, though. I think TMC can be the counterpart of the Oracles. I think that what eventually became TMC was originally going to be the third Oracle game.
That might explain the different geography and Vaati as the final boss.
As for my comment in my last post about Nintendo, I was obviously referring to Miyamoto and Aonuma. However, their jobs are only to overlook the development of the games and approve the ideas of the developers. There are other people who writes the storylines of the games. Maybe they care!
Besides, Miyamoto did once mention a document that describes how all the games fit together. The way he talked about it suggests to me that he didn't know where it is, only that it's hidden away somewhere. Again, it seems like it's the storyline-writers who writes the timeline.
Actually, I believe there might be several stories within that document that tells happenings that might turn into future Zelda games. The Legend of the Picori is a possible example of that.
I don't believe the split time theory for several reasons:
1. The Song Of Storms. The event of obtaining that "item" is triggered in the future. The future taught the song to Link and caused him to go back in time and use it. But at the same time, that event (playing the song to drain the well) in the past caused the future event to happen. This is not possible if time is not unchangeable. Also, if there's something like a split time, Link would be sleeping in the dimension, that featured the future events, at the time he's supposed to play that song in the windmill. Therefor, the future event cannot happen, yet it did. This would cause a big paradox.
2. Give me one game in which Ganondorf got sealed and did not escape in a later game. All right, if you believe the split timeline theory, TWW could. However, even if you believe that theory, you'll have to admit he escaped both his seals in OOT. So why wouldn't he be able to have escaped the seal caused by young Link in less than seven years, causing the future to still need to be saved. And why didn't Rauru send Link back to Hyrule's dimension immediately either, to seal Ganondorf? It seems Ganondorf stayed in the Sacred Realm for quite a long time.
3. Is it that hard for people to comprehend that traveling through time is not different from traveling through space? Closing the door of Time might just as well cause the link between times to vanish, like a portal being closed. The gate in the future still will be opened, because that's where the bridge ends that was started on the other end.
4. TWW's intro. It both "stated" that the Hero went back in time and that he traveled by horse. I admit the writers' explanation for the horse could very well be true, but look at it this way. Link went back in time and then left on Epona. At least young Zelda and Malon know that. So future Zelda and Malon know that too, and the drawing could be about Link's entire leaving, both in time and space, as told by Zelda, Malon and possibly others.
I'll leave it at that.
I doubt TMC is anywhere near what Oracle Of Secrets (:)) was supposed to be. TMC's Hyrule is almost identical to OOT's (hardly any geographical difference), while the other Oracle Of games clearly featured different lands. It's most likely the cancelled game was supposed to be in a different land too. Also, TMC's main theme is size, while, if it really would be the missing Oracle Of game, it should either be time or colour.
People actually believe that story about a timeline document? It sounds like the biggest cowcrap to me, seeing that most games still have rather vague connections, are seperated by huge amounts of time in which very important events took place, and are inconsistent when it comes to small, yet important facts. My guess: they make things up as they go.
Just for the record: don't compare OOT's time traveling with MM's and OOA's. Different devices and methods were used to travel between times in those games, so results may vary. If Link would've used OOA's method of time traveling, he might have been able to change things in time. However, he used the Master Sword.
I just thought of the following. I can't believe I forgot to add these.
5. The ending of OOT seems not likely to have happened. I don't doubt the part about the party, but about Link visiting Zelda. It is not a memory (or at least, likely not. I'm somewhat reminded of LA.). Navi was one of the reasons Zelda recognized Link, but she's not with Link during the ending visit. Actually, I don't even think she seemed to know Link in the ending. That, or she's VERY surprised he's still alive. Also, Link's Triforce symbol is NOT on his hand when he returns, but is there when he visits Zelda. I'm also missing a Goron's Bracelet, but I don't think that's relevant right now (feel free to prove me wrong). We know the Triforce symbol only appears when it's resonating with the others or during the event of receiving it. It could be Ganondorf at that moment touched the Triforce, causing Courage to go to Link. But why doesn't Zelda have hers then? If Zelda doesn't have hers, it can't resonate. So it must be because Ganondorf touched the Triforce. But where's Zelda's part? Why does Link have it, but she doesn't? Why would her piece not come to her? Especially if it did happen in the so-called other dimension.
Okay, I'm getting a bit confused about when the article states the split should've happened. I'm thinking I made a mistake by thinking they meant the first time Link went back in time caused the split, while after rereading everything, I think they meant Link's final return. Doesn't change any of my earlier made arguments. Time still cannot change, Ganondorf still can escape any Seal, traveling through time still can be through time and not dimensions and TWW's intro is also still the same.
My big question now: why exactly did the split happen at the end of OOT and not earlier? It's illogical that the same way of traveling has different effects. Was it Zelda who caused anything? That's believable, if only the Master Sword wasn't needed to close the road between times again (and to seal Ganondorf, I know). Two different keys don't work for the same lock.
Trying to follow the timeline as described in the article, it would mean: Link goes on an adventure, sleeps 7 years, continues adventure and hops back a few times causing him to do some things while he's also asleep at the same time, saves the day and then gets send back into time to a "dimension" that is called his original time, while it is actually just a replica of the original time that for some reason failed to start existing the first two times Link went back in time. Suppose the first thing he did was saving/warning Nabooru. Another thing the ending did not show! Link MUST have gotten the Ocarina from adult Zelda, otherwise it could not exist anymore in the past. Anyway, suppose he did that, which would take like, an hour? Shouldn't be much more, because otherwise they both will be captured by Kotake and Koume. Possibly, he first returned the stones too. After that, he went to Zelda. Question, if in this dimension Ganondorf touches the Triforce within a few hours, why didn't Link have it during his quests as child? Because that definetly took a few days if not weeks. He didn't have it during those times and nothing happened that could change time until this point.
And off course, why sending Link back if the other dimension doesn't exist yet (and therefor can't be in danger)? Sure, he lost seven years of his life. So what? Some even lost their entire life because of the war. Everyone has paid some price. Link should be happy he was saved from all the misery that happened during those seven years.
Dual Timeline also doesn't give any explanation for Navi leaving, while the Single Timeline could. No argument, but worth considering.
Statements made by Miyamoto or Aonuma are so overrated. I already said what I think of the "timeline document". I consider statements inferior in every possible way, and this is why.
Miyamoto around the time of the release of OOT: Ocarina of Time is the first story, then the original Legend of Zelda, then Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, and finally A Link to the Past
Seems that they either don't know what they are doing or that A Link To The Past in any case is seperated from Ocarina Of Time by very important events that took place over enormous amounts of time. So why couldn't TWW have happened inbetween either, if that's "supposed to be the case"? It's not a direct sequal if we trust those statements. Same goes for the story of OOT. The original Zelda64 did not feature time traveling and Link did not "start" as a Kokiri (or kid for that matter). My guess is that the entire tloz-story came into existance (a little) with TWW. And for that reason, OOT's timeline is something they are making up now. No matter the outcome, I hope they'll give it enough thought.
A final comment I'd like to make that doesn't prove anything, but I want it to be said. Nothing suggests that Link ever went back to his "home" after MM. Yes, he was in the Lost Woods (supposedly), but why would he return to the for him familiar surroundings? He still had not found that friend he was looking for. And besides "Shouldn't you be going home too?". Fine, what is Link's home? He has no specific place to go to. He's not a Kokiri anymore and not a true Hylian either. If Hyrule itself is his home, then the HMS's "suggestion" could have become true.
Alack, Lady Nintendo, why do you spurn the creators of all that is sacred and holy?
BLASPHEMER!!!
And besides, what things may be in such ideas as a split timeline, not all creators long over every single detail. So I must ponder the question: What use is it to say that the end sequence of OoT happened only as a memory? It's like we're going crazy, just going over every detail. But I am lost with this constant work of every detail. No enjoyment to the game, no essence to the story. And before you start going at my comments again, please just calm down. It's like we're just going word for words and debating like crazy without any meaning to the context of what we say. It drives on to the point where conversing in this topic becomes unbearable...
So please, give this one a chance, and let this one's theories be of his own idea, not open to attack or harsh stabbing. It ruins the points which I am trying to make on my own, getting harder to commune with what's happening.
What part of "it's not a memory" can be read as "it's a memory"? :)
I did not go over every little detail. I gave two reasons that show a huge inconsistency in the zelda/link ending. I could think of quite a few really minor details. Wanna hear them? ;D
I have the right to "fight" back. I'm not being aggresive or something, just showing that theory has just as many flaws as the single timeline, if not more. The article suggests the single timeline is impossible, while it's very much not. Just a bit awkward at some points.
No matter how much we splitters ( people who belieive the split timeline theory ) try to convince the naive, there's always resistence.
Lady Nintendo I suggest you read this for enlightenment:
http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?p=848
A single timeline is simply impossible! ???
My head hurts in a way it hasn't hurt anymore ever since I figured out what the new World Of Darkness' concepts were (Nothing, ignore. It is/was a storyline its money-hungry creators changed in such a way they managed to annihilated everything that made me love the original stuff.)
I have yet to play Twilight Princess, but it sounds like two other theories/concepts I've always believed and had a few discussions about, are being supported by it. So why not sweet number 3? I'm not going to change my theory because of an article I can find more than a few mistakes in and is apparently everything the dual-timeline people can come up with.
I said it once, and I say it again: The single timeline is possible, even likely, if only everything in it ALWAYS happened. And that's not unlikely.
I must argue for the sake of Lady Nintendo about what's said in that article. It takes certain notions and details and uses them to give proof, but it also overlooks willingly, IE: The legend of tingle, in order to mark any voice going against, as not supportive. But you have to look at things as a whole. I have a theory that WW takes place about 800 years, or close to a millenium after OoT. 100 or 200 years is simply too short a time for all these things to happen, espicially once we take into consideration of TP taking place itself, 100 years post OoT.
I'm going to have to go to the support of single timeline, while the article makes many assertions twixt the similarities between LttP and WW, and even to go so far as to say that the KoRL says that zelda and Link of WW are forbidden to call a new land 'Hyrule'. I think that LttP may actually take place AFTER WW, perhaps several millenia. The intro sequences are actually things that are things that are only superficial, but bear no insight to what is within the game itself. IE: many other zelda's could possibly have a similar intro,and thus it might evolve to the point of multiple timelines, but I'm not going to accept the multiple timeline theory now. The reason being that "Multiple Timelilne" Is just an excuse by gamers to not REALLY delve into everything. And simply end it at that point. Because there are already so many games in the series, so they would say 'put it in a split wave' in order to make things easier. But there are way too many hints in WW that we would relate in MM that they acknowledgebly refute as innaccurate, even though the creators themselves would've made these subtle hints as REAL evidence.
I REALLY think OoT exists as the 'true' first game (chronologically) of the history of hyrule.
Really? The Master Sword has been used before, the Sages has been gathered before, Ganon is hinted to have been REINCARNATED. I think it's very likely that there may one day be games that takes place before OoT. :-*
I don't think any of the current games (except PH, if you count those we know of but hasn't been released) fits after TWW. I, at least, feel very uneasy about putting a game after TWW before Ninty has fully explained what really happens after TWW.
Do Link and Zelda find New Hyrule? What about Old Hyrule? We know the Koroks are planning to revive Old Hyrule, but do Link and Zelda's descendants, if they find New Hyrule, return to Old Hyrule? I personally prefer to have as few holes as possible, therefore the only way, at the moment, one can have a somewhat complete timeline theory is if TWW/PH is put in the end. Unless it's a split timeline. :-*
In my current timeline the TMC BS comes first (which do hint to an earlier Link). Although I don't really have any strong evidence supporting it (except, maybe, Vaati's hint that the Light Force, though he don't know that it's THE Light Force at the time, has been in Zelda's family since her people were given their powers), that before the TMC BS the Hylians were a tribal people, and that the Hero of Men became their first King.
Anyway, another theory I have is that the Light Force isn't anything like the Triforce, which I originally believed, but a force that grants you the power to be the Master of the Triforce.
Sometime after the TMC BS the Royal Family gets their hands on the Triforce, and Hyrule enters a Golden Age, or the Hylian Age, as it's called in ALttP. That eventually leads to the AoL BS. One might ask if the Royal Family has the Light Force, and it grants them the Power, Wisdom and Courage to wield the Triforce, how come it split up when the new King touched it? Well, I can think of two answers.
1. It's possible that all the other kings before the one who dies in the AoL BS married close kin, to keep their blood pure. The King who died in the AoL BS, however, married a low-borne woman. Thus the Light Force didn't pass on to his son.
2. It's not impossible that TMC takes place before the AoL BS. Just because the Triforce isn't mentioned doesn't mean the Royal Family doesn't have it. It may be locked away in a safe place. Also, it's possible that Vaati knows that it will split if he touches it, and he don't want to take any risk that a hero, bearing the Triforce of Courage, will rise to challenge him. Don't forget, the reason he turns Zelda to stone is to AVOID such risks.
If the latter is correct, then my guess is that the young King in the AoL BS is TMC Link and Zelda's grandson. Why grandson and not son? Because Link and Zelda are both very powerful, and I bet that even with only 1/3 of the Light Force their son will possess the power to get the whole Triforce.
The spirits in the Shadow Temple in OoT talks about Hyrule's 'bloody history'. I think that's a Dark Age between the AoL BS, and ends with the unification by OoT Zelda's father.
However, I don't think it's a complete unification. The Japanese LoZ manual refers to Hyrule as a region, not a kingdom. And the AoL manual refers to the BS as a time when all the kingdoms of Hyrule were united. Furthermore, the leaders of the other 'kingdoms' seems to keep their royal titles. My theory on that is that the King of Hyrule is more of a military leader.
Anyways, after OoT/MM comes TP, of course. As to not spoil it to anyone, I won't say anything about that. Except that the ending has forced me to change my view on where FSA, ALttP and LoZ fits into the timeline.
First, however, comes the FS BS, and then the original FS. Then FSA, where Ganon has been reincarnated. He's sealed away in the Four Sword.
In TMC it's clear that without the elements the Four Sword becomes the White Sword, which is a sword in LoZ. My theory is that the Four Sword loses the elements somehow, and Ganon breaks free. The sword is later found at Death Mountain.
This is just an assumption, but I have a theory that when Ganon breaks free he attacks Hyrule Castle and reclaims the Triforce of Power. He is then either sealed away, or makes his escape to the Dark World (having no army), and later invades Hyrule. After all, according to the Japanese manual he invaded from a 'world of evil', so the escape from the Four Sword doesn't directly connect to the invasion (unless the Four Sword is somewhat like Anomander Rake's sword in the Malazan Book of the Fallen).
Anyway, centuries pass (it's an Age of Darkness, after all) and eventually a new Link is borne. Ganon kidnaps Zelda, who already has shattered the Triforce of Wisdom, and Link sets out to save her.
Several years later, in AoL, Link breaks the curse on the Sleeping Princess and reunites the Triforce. Hyrule enters another Golden Age. Anyway, it's only a matter of time before someone whose heart is not in balance touches the Triforce, so in the Oracles a new Link finds them in an abandoned castle. He goes on a journey to save Holodrum and Labrynna, and eventually fights a resurrected Ganon.
Here is the only big hole, but that cannot be avoided, sadly. I only hope Nintendo makes a game that can fill this hole. Anyway, somehow the Triforce AND Ganon ends up in the Dark World. That's because this is where I put ALttP in my newest timeline theory.
After this (and LA, which I think is its direct sequel) there's another Golden Age, but following it the Hylians declines again, and when Ganon attacks again the Goddesses floods Hyrule. And then finally there's TWW and PH.
Marin Im sorry in your timeline yout mising some games (ike TP