The Desert Colossus

Attached is the Official Version 1.3 Rules Set for HA2. I am open to futher criticism and suggestions before the game launches.

As always, "Save Target As..." the link rather than left-clicking it.

Sounds good. Here's some questions:

1) How come fairies can't learn fairy?
2) Where's all the Gerudos? There language is learnable, but they aren't playable.
3) Are we going to be able to have our own guilds?
4) If fairies are so small, how can they use nprmal weapons?


Anyway, I have to applaud you though. You have actually made it hard for me to choose between Vagabond, Grunt, and Scholar. Thanks.

(1) Because it would be redundant for them, since they can't turn themselves into a fairy when they already are one.

(2) Gerudos will play a very important role in the ongoing story of HA2. They will be NPCs only.

(3) I'm gonna say no to guilds for now. They caused more worka nd problems than the benefits off-setted. Dekou and his shennanigans for example.

(4) Fairies are restricted from the larger weapons, such as the 2 Handers, the Bow, and the Spear.

I think I may end up playing the game as well as Narrating. I really like how its shaping out.  ;D

Coolio! Here's my quick questions of the moment:

1) "Temple Services—Heal an ally to full HP" Ally? Or "Target" (like, self, or dark-based enemies?)

2) Same question for song-learning... for allies/parties--including self? Is it an aura only effective for people within eyesight or is it a song that once heard, works for anyone for 3 rounds, even if they run to another room?

3) Oops... my question about stat stacking was answered. So I'm guessing that

Quotestat increases do not stack

applies for all other talents as well, like weapon "chance to hit", "chance to affect", skill bonuses, and buffs?

4)

QuoteIf the resist check exceeds 20 they take half DMG, and if the check exceeds 25 the character takes no damage.

Does that mean that someone with 24 SPI would be immune to magic attacks, or did I mis-read something?

Other than that, just a couple minor typos here and there (like "Speak: Gerudic—Allows you to read and speak the Moblinish language").

That's all for now, hopefully I can offer more comments later... this is looking awesome; the sophistication just feels denser :D. There's so much you can do to affect a character, so I'm sure we'll have some really effective and/or interesting builds before long ^^. Love the Traveler's Hostel idea.
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I'm back. More questions...

5) Where exactly does it say that Fairies can't use Fairy (Spell)? And if so, I guess part of the reason would be to prevent a Fairy from getting a cheap L3 Life to use on themself?

6)

QuoteNow disparate faction vie for influence and power within Hyrule

In this light, would the factions tend to have at least some slight grudging enmity against each other, role-play wise? Just another importance of faction choice, maybe? By the way, I have to mention that your official-ish rule writing (particularly the "Story" at the beginning) is awesome as usual. I'm always caught off-guard--kind of like, "Wait, where'd he pull this from? What's that? He wrote it himself!?" :)

7) Spirit of Dragonbane--is this a free talent usable every... so many rounds? Lasting for how many rounds?

8 ) Do you get 1 TP at Level 1? (Sorry about how picky I'm being... -_-)

9) Are all the buffs (i.e. Call of Din) "free" (no SPL to play song)? Just takes a turn to use the talent?

10) For "Learn: Spell", do we know what status effect will be induced on the target (confusion, removal, attack friend)? And I'm guessing attack friend would be negated for any sort of Arena-style fighting in HA2 (if we have it)?

11) Maybe "Choke" should be boosted somewhat, due to the risk involved (two checks and penalty if failed), amount of time needed (two rounds at least), and Talents involved/needed to be invested in (three [stealth, choke, garrote])? Or is the inflicted status of a successful choke indefinite removal from battle (which is basically like an insta-kill as long as some mage doesn't go and cast thunder/elemental explosion on everything ^_^)? Possibly just an instant-kill against enemies of same level of lower of the Thief?

12) For Disarm, what exactly happens if someone's weapon is knocked out of their hand? Perhaps the target would need to spend ~2 turns retrieving it (to make up for the 1 turn that the grunt uses to Disarm, plus risk factor)?

That's all for now! Oh, and I'm guessing that we'll have more information on element effects and sub-classes to come? Thanks a million for answering my questions... hope you do indeed decide to join in the fun after we cut the red ribbon!

I've edited the Rules Set (updating it to v1.1) to address a bunch of valid points that Weien brought up.

1. With spells and otherwise, ally refers to anyone near you that is not currently hostile (intending to attack) you.

2. As long as a character hears the song being played (they are in the immediate area of the performance) they have the buff for the next three rounds.

3. I edited the rules set to reflect your point.

4. 24 SPI will be just about impossible to attain. Numbers will be very low. Example: a L6 Zora Scholar with L3 Zora Spirit will have 9 SPI, thus a +9 bonus to their resist roll. They'd have to roll a 16 or higher to receive no damage from a spell.

5. I edited the Rules Set to reflect your point.

6. For example, the Hylian Knights look upon the Exiles with suspicion, since they are redeemed traitors. They also look at Blind's Gang members as criminals, but necessary allies. Exiles look at both groups as stooges and weak. Blind's Gang looks at both as money making opportunities.

And, thanks  ;D

7. Edited the Rules Set to reflect your point. It should be once every three rounds the ability can be used.

8. No, you start at level 1 with 0 TPs.

9. I edited the Rules Set so songs have SPL costs.

10. I edited the Rules Set to reflect your point. There's now a spearate Spell section explaining the effects it will have based on a special d20 roll.

11. Choke is costly because it removes an enemy from combat for three rounds, which can be a life saver in a situation where you are being attacked by two or more very powerful enemies, and therefore can spend three rounds focusing on just one enemy without harassment from the other. If in game it proves weak, I'll buff it.

12. I edited the Rules Set to relfect your point. Now disarm also causes damage even if it fails to disarm, so there is a benefit to attempting it by a Grunt.

I really appreciate your lending of ears... the rulebook is looking better every day.  :)

For 1), about Life, I was more wondering if it could be casted on one's self, besides allies.

For 4), about having 24 SPI, thanks--it makes a lot more sense now. For some reason I was under the impression that all stats advanced a little per level, a la HA1. Now I see that we'll be dealing with much smaller numbers (that is, unless someone with leadership + Spirit of Nayru doesn't get ideas... ^^ still, a lot of TP needed for that).

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QuoteI edited the Rules Set so songs have SPL costs.

Wah, how unfortunate! :D Was having fun entertaining the idea of keeping an entire party buffed on all stats +7 perpetually by rotating the 3 songs... -_- Which brings me to one worry--SPL shortage, which is something that can't really be estimated too well at the moment...

I guess it all revolves around melee vs magic DMG, especially considering how things might change as time goes on. Will a mage have to invest in a weapon to stay consistently useful in battle, while shortchanging spellcasting abilities (TP is sounding limited)? Will a melee fighter end up doomed to chip away enemy HP relative to the supernatural explosive powers of mages (probably not, but I thought I'd mention it).

I think the balance issues revolve mostly around the question, "Will anyone want to pick this class/subclass?" (which we saw as an issue for HA1 Scribes). For example, if someone wants to go as an all-out-purely-support-buff character, would it be worth it? Will he be able to buff often enough to be known as a buffer (rather than a middle-weight melee'er that buffs whenever he has spare SPL, or might want to for that one potentially long boss battle at the end of the quest)? Will there even be a need to buff (which might not be the case if the group is just dominating everyone)? Will healers need to heal allies often, and will they be able to (reasonably have enough SPL)? Will reconaissance-types (rangers/nomads) be able to afford the TP for their skills and then have opportunities to use them often enough? Will melee-damagers end up as dependable yet somewhat mediocre damage dealers? Will they (realistically) get hit more often, being in the front lines, which would render certain types of healing and buffing more important (I guess that's GM discretion)? Just my thoughts...

Oh, and Choke looks much more feasible in that light... truthfully, I guess one could be able to take advantage of it for only 3 TP (with no check bonuses). And I'm guessing that the Garrote can be used as a normal weapon as well? And stealth has a sort of shadowmeld feel to it, all things which make the individual talents "worth it." Good thinking on our Narrator's part, there.  :)

QuoteNow disarm also causes damage even if it fails to disarm, so there is a benefit to attempting it by a Grunt.

But now the smart Grunt will attempt to disarm every attack, which could prove problematic... 'course, "Disarm" could only be used against things that have weapons (or at least, arms), which balances the universality. Thoughts? Maybe it would be more like one of those "every 3 rounds" or "50% DMG" talents?

Last question, for buffs--how would a buff for SPI, SPL, or HP work? Is it just +X for the stat, even if at full (like, total HP=40, once buffed, HP=47)? Then how about SPI--would it, when buffed change SPL as well (so then Spirit of Nayru would have a double-whammy sort of effect for SPL boosting)?

Time for me to turn in. Thanks again!

We might not want SPI as Willpower as it(SPI) is. Most people would only have 1 point to use as Willpower. That's not enough, and again Zoras dominate because they have 4 or 6(scholar). I think willpower should be the average of all their stats, which is for Zoras, S = 7, V = 8, G = 9. For everyone else, S = 6, V = 7, and G = 8.

QuoteThen how about SPI--would it, when buffed change SPL as well (so then Spirit of Nayru would have a double-whammy sort of effect for SPL boosting)?

I was thinking the same thing, but along different lines. Aren't Zoras now the best race? They gain SPI bonuses, and therefore get the highest SPI, HP, and SPL of all classes.

Here's a Zora Scholar-
STR- 1
DEF- 2
AGI- 1
INT- 3
SPI- 6
HP- 26
SPL- 6

Hylian Scholar-
STR- 1
DEF- 2
AGI- 1
INT- 6
SPI- 3
HP- 23
SPL- 3

My point is although it's a small difference, it gets worse. A Zoran Grunt has 4, 44, 5 as it's last three stats. All of those are higher than a Hylian Scholar, and this guy is meant for combat.

In my opinion, Zoras are way too good.

One last thought, at some point I would like to see more sub-class specific talents. An example of why is because other than align, there is nothing to differentiate a Mercenary and a Vassal. They both have the same 28 learnable talents.

My main concern is that Thieves have lots of talents only they can do like: Garrote, Disarm Trap, Stealth, Pick Pockets, Pick Lock, and Choke. Whereas every other class seems to all be the same with only 1 -3 talents that are not everyone else's.

Ah thanks for pointing that out MG. I'll probably knock down the Zora SPI bonus to +1.

As for the subclass talent, I just wrote a good slew of them, which I'll be posting in v1.2 of the Rules Set. Overall, each subclass should have three special talents for them only.

For willpower, perhaps SPI + level and its capped at 9, that way the lowest you can have is 2, and the highest is 9. Since you can add it do your rolls, I don't want people to have crazy amounts of willpower? I'll defer to your opinions before I edit willpower.

As to Weien's questions:

1. Yes, any beneficial spell/song/what have you can be used on you as well.

2. Disarm has been changed so it can only be performed once every three rounds.

3. If a buff affects SPI, then in turn it will affect HP, SPL, etc.

Thanks for the input guys!

With dual weild, will you be able to use two two-handed weapons? If not, you should add a one-handed sword.

There is, all Grunts start with the ability to use one handed swords.

I've added 14 new talents, and just about all of them class specific. This should provide that much-needed diversification among the subclasses.

I'll probably add a few more before launch.

Quick thoughts of the moment:

1) Might I be so bold to point out which subclasses could use additional skills most? I'm thinking...
-Ranger
The ranger feels like a thief with only one thief talent and a couple of basic nomad talents. Maybe add an analytical talent along the lines of "The Quill is Mightier than the Sword" for the ranger's use? Or maybe, a la "Choke" for the thief, the ranger can take "Calm Beast" to another step--using something like "Tame/Control Beast," a ranger could attempt to instruct a successfully calmed beast (even if it wasn't the ranger who calmed it) to attack a target. Thoughts?

-Mage
Give them another spell, maybe? They only have two spells separating them from the rest of the scholars at the moment, one might think that a mage would have a much wider arsenal... maybe add a life leech of sorts, for example? Or a "weakening" (power/armor break) stat inducing spell? The same is true for clerics too, but for them maybe it's not another talent/spell that's in order. Drawing a blank at the moment.

-Mercenary
I'm thinking that these guys could use something... radical. Why else is someone going to be choosing a subclass like this? It could be as preposterous as special 'contacts' (purchase items cheaper?) that only a mercenary would have access to, or something as queer as "Mercenary gets +3 boost to all stats when in the presence of a bag of rupees (i.e. someone rolls a "19" for Spell or some does Pick Pocket or "a freshly slain corpse spills out a few jingling bags" or a large Treasure Chest is sitting in the corner). Maybe some sort of "headhunt" talent?

Finally, I think that for the "Bard Only" songs, it might be important to note (unless it's supposed to be that way) that bards don't get the -3TP bonus for their purchase... just to keep it clear.

Thanks again! Those new skills are awesome, I must say (particularly the Scribe and Vassal ones, and it's exciting to see unarmed combat, too).

QuoteNomadic Awareness-This is a passive ability. A Nomad automatically gains +2 to all Awareness checks.
Restricted: Vassals only

That doesn't work  ;D

For arcane archery, I'm assuming it is usable with a short bow...

But overall very good stuff.

Quotea ranger could attempt to instruct a successfully calmed beast (even if it wasn't the ranger who calmed it) to attack a target.

That would be cool, and reminds me alot of the "pets" idea.

I think a cool spell would be something along the lines of "mind games". Which could have different effects based on whatever class used it. A hidden thief could talk to their victims, using a menacing(and fear-inducing) voice causing 2.5x DMG on the next turn. Mercenaries could taunt, or maybe this could be used RP'ingly(?). You could choose it's effect, and based on it's relative usefulness, appropriateness, and well thought-outness, it's effect on the victim could vary. That way, the better role-played, and more useful it is, the higher it's chance to 1) succeed, and 2) help the situation. It could also distract an enemy so that if hit by whoever's next that hit causes 1.5x DMG. Or maybe a Mage could craft a wonderful luminous sphere to blind a foe. But turnabout is fair play. Similarly, it could affect party members. A bard could create a song(on the spot), and depending on it's creativity it could effect the enemy in random ways(it could also distract teammates). Basically, I would like to see a spell/talent for everyone that encourages thinking, role-playing, and planning.

And have we thought of spells based upon align of Order/Neutral/Chaos?

Maybe for a cleric talent we could have "Repent". Say after being attacked 3 times, or 1 by an undead, the cleric can use a powerful incantation to unleash the unlimited fury of the goddesses on the target, leaving it with a mighty 1 HP remaining.

QuoteAnd have we thought of spells based upon align of Order/Neutral/Chaos?

I'd like that.  Like Light Side spells and Dark Side spells, only more Zelda-esque.

By the way, I was wondering where it was in the rules that we find the weapons that each class starts out with... I couldn't find it ><.

QuoteArcane Archery—One must possess this talent to use Ice, Fire, or Light Arrows.

Does this imply that specific arrow types would have to be purchased or that SPL would be used with each shot of a magic arrow?

Quote

Quotea ranger could attempt to instruct a successfully calmed beast (even if it wasn't the ranger who calmed it) to attack a target.

That would be cool, and reminds me alot of the "pets" idea.

I guess it is something like the pets idea, except I was thinking that the "beast taming" skill would be more like "Stays tamed for one round (can attack one target), reverts to aggressive after the round." It might be more fair/valuable if it could be used for 2 rounds, but I think it'd be awkward if we had a single leftover beast that was on our side at the moment but had to be killed anyway (something that could happen with longer durations).

For The Quill is Mightier than the Sword, what happens if the person using the scroll misses?

QuoteI think a cool spell would be something along the lines of "mind games".

Like, a single talent that any class could use--a sort of extremely open-ended skill which would have varying uses in varying situations? A really interesting idea--I'm guessing it'd need to be kept basic with only a couple rules (i.e. the role-played action shouldn't require much SPL, effect is left totally to discretion of GM, etc) to keep it open-source ^^?

Personally, I have a hard time comprehending how light/dark or order/neutral/chaos talents would work and balance out. Would it end up more like "Benevolent/Objective/Malicious" (for order/neutral/chaos, respectively)? Then an example (for a stunning-type spell) would be like:

Benevolent: Target assumes a status of sleep for 3 rounds, awakens if attacked.
Objective: Target is knocked out for 2 rounds, takes partial DMG from weapon used to stun. Awakens if attacked.
Malicious: Target is dazed for one round, emerges from the bewilderment with reduced AGI.

But that might be a little harsh... for one, I doubt that those who go with Chaos want to be known as "malicious" (they just want a bit of bonus cash ^_^). But if the lines between alignments get too fine, spell differentiation might be tricky.

With that regard, Light/Dark tends to be a little easier. A low-level alignment-themed attack:
Prism Cast (Light): A magical blade of glass cuts the target for 6 DMG.
Life Siphon (Dark): Target is siphoned of 4 DMG, 2 HP of which are siphoned to the caster.

A variation on this that popped into my head--Light VS Dark type spells.
Purging (Light-aligned): Beams of light attack darkness in target, DMG dealt is proportionate to how "Dark" target is.
Tolerance: Beams of dark pervade target and deal DMG proportionate to how "Light" target is.

What did you guys have in mind?

QuoteWith that regard, Light/Dark tends to be a little easier. A low-level alignment-themed attack:
Prism Cast (Light): A magical blade of glass cuts the target for 6 DMG.
Life Siphon (Dark): Target is siphoned of 4 DMG, 2 HP of which are siphoned to the caster.

I like your general idea for light and dark spells.  Light would be beneficial to all in some way, but dark would be more self centered.  We could also incorperate the idea like, Light = Defensive, Dark = Offensive.  A character of light alingnment is more likely to heal and protect, and a dark character will sap and build their power.  Spells would be as such:
Evil's Blind Spot (Light):  Allows the user to become a bright ball of light.  Enemies (and allies) are unable to see one another.  Chances of hitting an enemy of the group go down by 75%, and chances of hitting the spellcaster goes down only 50%.
Black Lightning (Dark): Allows caster to knock out an enemy for a total of three rounds.  The most dominant stat of the enemy will be added to the caster's stats +Y * Level of the enemy.  So if a level 5 enemy had agility as its strong point, the caster would get +5 to his/her agility.

The problem is, are there not spells in this game that are somewhat "good" or "bad" spells?  Should all spells be labeled good or evil?  It depends on the usage that define them.  Of the original Zelda spells, I don't think they can be catagorized.  On the other hand, we could have some extra ones that are like white and black magic.

I've edited the Rules Set again.

1. Fixed that Vassals only on Nomadic Awareness.

2. Added a new Mercenary talent: Enterprise (Weien's in presence of money stat booster).

3. Noted that Bard Only songs do not receive a bard discount in tp cost.

4. Added a starting equipment section in the Rules Set.

As for the other suggestions (like Light v Dark spells), they are great, but I feel they go a lot deeper than is necessayr. Certainly in the future if they prove to be something needed to fill a void, I'll be for adding them. Likewise, I am happy with the current talents available, every class has at least three that they can use, some have a few more (thieves). I'll add more in future updates, but this is a good start. I will probably, though, add a few more spells before launch, specifically a "Cleanse" spell for Clerics and I still need to codify Favor of the Goddesses for the Hylians.

Mind games is also cool, but that is much more of a RPing detail that would be best handled by an enterprising GM, rather than a codified rule.

As for questions: Quill Is Mightier creates a one-time use scroll. When it is applied to an attack, and the attack misses, the scroll is still used up as normal.

I've got a question--I dunno how many EXP is needed to advance to the next level...

I haven't worked that out yet. It'll probably be about the same as in Ha1.

Can people skip from a Talent Level to the next one?Like,as in,someone doesn't take LV 1 Ex.Health,but takes LV 2 Ex.Health instead?

No, you'd have to buy L1, then you could buy L2.

For throwing knives, do they have to be thrown or can they be used in close combat, and can they be retrived? On the rules, Sheikahs can not use 2 handed swords, in MM the Great Diety, whom I believe is Sheikah uses a two handed sword.

I don't know 100% if the Fierce Diety is Shiekah. I'm going more by the Sheikah we do know, the skinny, quick, more elegant kind.

And throwing knives are smaller and can't be used in close quarters.

I'm guessing that the same goes for bows and slings, too? Because in HA1 we never really enforced distancing in battles... archers could always pull of a shot, no matter what sort of room we were in.

Actually, I think I once had Korind (back in the old days) whack someone with a boomerang that was still in his hand...

And along the same line, can Garrotes be used like regular melee weapons--a particularly resourceful thief might use it to lash out at an enemy?

You might have already answered this, but can talent bonuses add together? Such as if a scribe used The Quill, and gave it to a Vassal, could the Vassal use Honorable Kill for a x4 bonus?

A concern of mine it that skill checks may be all chance now. With stats being alot closer than in HA, the only thing that effect success is really the dice roll. An example:

Player A and Player B are having a contest. Whoever can push a heavier stone wins. In HA, Player A would have a +7 advantage(using ATK). This reflected the inevitable difference between a ranger and a wizard. In Version 2, the difference between the two is 1. Chances are, the difference is minimal enough that it doesn't really matter that the ranger should be stronger.

QuoteA concern of mine it that skill checks may be all chance now.

Good point... I guess that in this case, the differences would be limited to:
-A possible +3 STR for a Goron using Spirit of Dragonbane
-Possible +1, +2, or +3 STR for Goron Strength
-A bonus for good RP?
-Bard/Scribe/Leadership buffs
-Glove/Ring bonuses to STR
-Clever GMming like giving a +2 STR bonus to people with "Dig"?

But without the modifiers, the difference really is pretty small. Hopefully Jack can answer our questions (the distancing element, too, please ^_^).

Can Gorons learn swim? I would think they are too heavy to swim...

To answer your questions (sorry I hadn't gotten this done earlier):

1. Quill and Honorable Kill will not stack. I'll edit the Rules Set to point that out.

2. The reason initially that a ranger and wizard would be able to push a rock equally at the initial level is because initially all characters are veyr similar. However, after they diversify and pick up talents, they gain an edge in certain areas that other classes may not have. So while at level 1 they may be equal, at level 10 that would not be the case.

3. I always tried to mantain an aura of distancing in the events, but its quite hard to enforce that over AIM.

4. Garrotes are a thin string of wire. Other than some minor irritation they would not cause much damage to an enemy.

5. The Goron version of swimming involves holding their breath and trudging along the riverbed. Swimming denotes less the actual act of swimming than being able to pass across a 5-foot deep bit of water.

Quote3. I always tried to mantain an aura of distancing in the events, but its quite hard to enforce that over AIM.

During Jack's quest he had a pretty good solution for distance. It had a grid like this(note: works better on phpBB):

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Anyhoo, the red was rows of pots/off the path, the black was the normal path, and the green would be a stationary enemy/column/whatever. Doesn't work on AIM too well, but a good forum distance enforcer. Then you have each X equal 4 ft, which works for throwing. Players/nonstationary enemies would be placed through coordinates.

Shiva(Pink) is at (9,2). It made the quest very realistic, we had to guard Adara(NPC). So to protect from(in this case) the Beamos, Adara(Blue) would have to be at (9,1) to be shielded. My only warning is that it takes work to make the rooms at first. We could also use something like this for movement now that we have lower AGI, like a 1:1 ratio.

Hmm that reminds me, are we going to need to have AIM for HA2 since I have long gotten rid of AIM and I really do not want to get it back. So do we need it, or do I have to re-download it and create a new screename? In my opinion it would probably be better to use something like mIRC as it is easier then AIM.

Narrator--

Although we're going to launch Hyrule Adventures within the next day or two, I was wondering--are you going to be putting up the latest Rules Set (1.3?) anytime soon? I know we had some new additions, most of which weren't major, but it's just a nice to have ^_^. Thanks.

I haven't put 1.3 up yet? Yikes, and I've been sitting on it this entire time. Well, I've uploaded it, and made some changes way back that now I do not recall, but expect them to be whatever was requested here.