2 Problems and how to solve them

[FunTykoon]

You know it, and I know it.

This place is a ghostland. When I posted two days ago in GD, and came back to find that not a single post had been made since, I knew something was up.
I've kept this in for a while, but I fear for the site to die a slow, painful death.

Problem #1. Zelda is a great game, but it does not put off enough news. It has barely any annoucements, and when it has its little burst around a release/annoucement of a game, you have to wait two more years for another burst.
Solution: Make the site about more than Zelda! I know plenty of game that people around here know about such as Kingdom Hearts, WoW, Halo, and many others. When you have even a fraction of all these audiences coming to this site, it will explode in popularity. I put this at number one for a reason. Other Zelda sites can survive because of their ongoing fanbase, and the updates to guides/tutorials. We can't, because we went almost defuct for a year. I say become a gaming website not exclusive to Zelda, because I, and many others, would willingly help update the site.

Problem #2. I am going to put it two you straight. The front page sucks. I know we are a desert-themed website, but solid browns and tans look horrible.
Solution: We need someone who can make a good website format. I think we should go with a nice blue grey like Exploding Deku Nut.

I really think this will help. I see nothing wrong if we just add a few more games and spice up the website.

[Testy McTestTest]

This is KamakaziPlumber.

The forums are broken, FunTykoon. I've been trying to fix it since the 13th. You, Zelda Veteran, and any new members are the only ones who can access the forums to post. Everyone else is blocked off by the error. I'm trying to fix it, but it's taking a while - SMF's own support is having some trouble coming up with the fix, and anyways, I'm waiting on some help from Jack right now, so it's going to take even longer. Chill out.

1) No. The purpose of the forums is to provide a venue for the discussion of other games besides Zelda. TDC is a Zelda site, and will always remain that way. If I tried to change it, Jack would be devastated - and he's the one who still pays for the server and domain. Besides, I don't want to change it.

2) I personally created the newest version of the layout and I am insulted by your comments. Not to mention, Jack personally requested that I not change the layout when I first took his job - I got his permission to change it as much as I did, and as a tribute to his layout that MOST of us have grown to know and love, the colors remained mostly the same. Jack even wanted me to make the old layout an option - if I thought I could do it easily, I would. On top of it all, TDC's coding is nightmarish, and I have neither the patience nor the time to recode it from scratch just so I can use a newer layout.

You may not have been around long enough to appreciate TDC for what it is, but a lot of us have. I am trying to improve the site as much as I can, the SandCast is the perfect example of this; and, before you start complaining, it's a monthly podcast, which is why there hasn't been a second episode yet.

But most of all, there is no way TDC can thrive as any kind of site if it has naysayers such as yourself. Helping does not equal trying to change everything. Helping is when you improve what is already in place. You wanted to be on the SandCast, yourself - that is helping. Calling TDC a "ghostland" and saying that its "front page sucks" is not. It's not very nice of you, either.

[Pyrgus]

Yeah. The only way that any of us can post anything is by using a totally seperate browser and by creating a new account. Which is honestly too much of a hassel when KP will probably have the forums fixed before too much longer.
I couldn't even read the forums until I downloaded Opera.  I got an error messege. 

[FunTykoon]

This is KamakaziPlumber.

The forums are broken, FunTykoon. I've been trying to fix it since the 13th. You, Zelda Veteran, and any new members are the only ones who can access the forums to post. Everyone else is blocked off by the error. I'm trying to fix it, but it's taking a while - SMF's own support is having some trouble coming up with the fix, and anyways, I'm waiting on some help from Jack right now, so it's going to take even longer. Chill out.

1) No. The purpose of the forums is to provide a venue for the discussion of other games besides Zelda. TDC is a Zelda site, and will always remain that way. If I tried to change it, Jack would be devastated - and he's the one who still pays for the server and domain. Besides, I don't want to change it.

2) I personally created the newest version of the layout and I am insulted by your comments. Not to mention, Jack personally requested that I not change the layout when I first took his job - I got his permission to change it as much as I did, and as a tribute to his layout that MOST of us have grown to know and love, the colors remained mostly the same. Jack even wanted me to make the old layout an option - if I thought I could do it easily, I would. On top of it all, TDC's coding is nightmarish, and I have neither the patience nor the time to recode it from scratch just so I can use a newer layout.

You may not have been around long enough to appreciate TDC for what it is, but a lot of us have. I am trying to improve the site as much as I can, the SandCast is the perfect example of this; and, before you start complaining, it's a monthly podcast, which is why there hasn't been a second episode yet.

But most of all, there is no way TDC can thrive as any kind of site if it has naysayers such as yourself. Helping does not equal trying to change everything. Helping is when you improve what is already in place. You wanted to be on the SandCast, yourself - that is helping. Calling TDC a "ghostland" and saying that its "front page sucks" is not. It's not very nice of you, either.

Just because I didn't know about the newbie thing, doesn't mean I need to chill. I wasn't being hostile, no matter how sensitive the reader is.

You are a Zelda site. But, having a Zelda site is one of the hardest sites to keep a community on, because there is no news. Other sites like The Hylia, and Zelda Dungeon, have a great amount of people, because THEY UPDATE GUIDES, AND DID NOT HAVE A STALLING PERIOD OF ALMOST A YEAR. Tell me Kamakazi, when was the last time the site was updated besides the front page, and what was it? If I was Jack, I would be ashamed at the lackluster work around here. When he was here, the site was awesome. Now, really tell me that the site is a good Zelda site without lying.

It's all fine and dandy that you think the layout is a tribute. The only problem is that it looks like it was made in MS Paint. You even said it yourself that you didn't have the patience to rework the layout, nightmarish or not, what does this say about your work ethic. All of the stalling period could have been used to rework the layout one step at a time.

Quite frankly, when you have only about 13 constant posters on the forums, things haven't been updated in months (Ask Ezlo, Caption Game, ANY Zelda Guide, and the Condependium), calling this place a ghostland is completely justifiable. Everyone wants tight knit family esque forums and site, but it is ridiculous.

Also throwing insults like " You are just a naysayer" and "Just so you wont complain" doesn't make it any different that you haven't worked on the site ( Beside What Makes Zelda Great, which should take all of 2 hours) in a long time. You cant just call someone a non-believer when you don't have the time ( Which you shouldnt have commited to a website if you don't have the time) or the patience ( Which you have very little of, from what I can tell), to make a good website. It probably is a good idea that you don't have anymore games on your plate, considering that you cannot hold up one that has so little upkeep.

Also, learn to take some critisism, just because someone says you work sucks, doesn't mean they dislike you.

[Testy McTestTest]

You still seem perfectly hostile to me.

I'm not finding this mythical "stalling period of almost a year" that you speak of. I did notice, though, that there was a 6-7 month delay from Jack's last update to the point where he passed the torch to me. A delay which was populated by a few posts from Alpha and I. But if I am somehow forgetting some point where there was a year without updates, then it was only because I have school to worry about as well, and some things take priority over others. Meanwhile, the last update to the site was the addition of the SandCast, which followed the opening of South Hyrule in HA2.

You just keep insulting my work. Jack personally approved the layout, as did a few people here on TDC and whoever I could show it to from other Zelda sites. If a majority of people hadn't liked the layout, I wouldn't have put it up. As it is, I can't remember anyone who didn't like it anyways. The layout is not nightmarish, the code behind it is. I would have to redo all of TDC to put up a layout that was completely different. I don't know what you'd consider it, but I know that would be a huge undertaking, and I am not going to try to start something I won't be able to finish. Few people would have the patience to work on it, I'm only human. Even if I did somehow, time would still be an issue. I did what I could to improve the layout and I stand by it.

Going back to the comparison to other Zelda sites, Zelda Dungeon has a ton of updates because it has staff members. An extensive amount of staff members, at that. I am basically the only person working on the site, with Alpha doing his What Makes Zelda Great thing every once and a while, which I know is as often as he can. Both of us are normal human beings with lives outside of TDC that we have to deal with. I wish I could devote my entire life to improving TDC; if that was within my power, we could have a more different layout, or more content. Unfortunately I don't, and I am basically alone in taking care of TDC. You can criticize a lack of content when there is a full staff team that is failing to work on it.

I committed to TDC because I loved it and I knew I would have more time than Jack to keep the site up, and because I knew I had the knowledge necessary to run a site in the first place. I am entirely responsible for the layout, the front page, the files that keep HA2 running, and the forums. Tomorrow I will have been working on getting the Forum back online for two weeks. I will have spent two weeks worrying about it, trying everything I could to fix it, and most recently, waiting for the SMF support team (and Jack) to give me the help I need. I cannot believe that in the middle of all of this, I am being criticized by you for not doing enough for the site.

You need to learn how to give criticism without being insulting, and how to tell the difference between applicable criticism and personal opinion.

[scherzo di mare]

@FunTycoon: Believe you me, I've lurked around a bit, and this place is no ghostland.

No, a true ghostland is when ya have to wait around a week for somebody even to post a spam message. Or when brainless spam is all you get. As for the "thirteen posters" issue, I've been on healthy forums with less.

Take deep breaths, dood; wait for the forumbork issues to resolve themselves; and enjoy the place as she is.

An' for the record, I've always liked the front page. :B

[Bomby]

Well then.  I guess I must put an end to this madness.

I'm sure most of you don't know me, so let me introduce myself.  I am Dabombster, also known as Bomby, from Zelda Dungeon.  I am a Webmaster there, and believe I can shed some light on these things.

I will address your first problem to being with, since it was... well, your first problem.  We can't force them to release a new Zelda game, it just can't be done.  Now when you compare TDC to ZD, the site I help run, I see a few issues.  First off, at Zelda Dungeon we have what seem like constant updates because we have a lot of staff to work on stuff.  At Zelda Dungeon, we have eight staff members I believe.  TDC has... two?  It's much harder to produce content like we do with so few people.  I used to talk to KamakaziPlumber quite frequently before I disappeared from the net for a while because my life caught up to me.  We've recently started talking again, and I know he has a lot of stuff going on for him right now.  If he feels like sharing it with you, then he can, but I won't because it's not my position to.  It's nearly impossible to take care of a site and expect it to be something truly spectacular with one, maybe two people working on everything, so unless you plan on helping out the site and writing some content for it, you really have no room to talk.

Your second issue.  I've discussed this with him in a one-on-one chat.  He said he wanted to change the layout, and I even offered to help him, but Jack doesn't want it changed.  Jack still owns the site, not KamakaziPlumber, so he still has the ultimate decision when it comes to these things.  You need to take into consideration what other people can and can't do, not just what you want.  The world doesn't revolve around you, and neither does the internet.  Either deal with it, or get out, don't complain about things that really can't be helped.

[Nathan]

Before I continue, let  me get started with a little introduction. I am Nathanial Rumphol-Janc, co-owner of the semi-popular zelda fan site ZeldaInformer: http://zeldainformer.com I am new to these forums, but not to DC itself. Been a fan of this site for many, many years. I have been in this business since 1999, when I started then named Zelda Domain and ran that all the way through 2006, before a hosting situation caused said site to disapeared. I came back on the scene in 2008 in a merger deal with ZeldaInformer, and have been rocking ever since. So, here are my thoughts.

Problem #1. Zelda is a great game, but it does not put off enough news. It has barely any annoucements, and when it has its little burst around a release/annoucement of a game, you have to wait two more years for another burst.
Solution: Make the site about more than Zelda! I know plenty of game that people around here know about such as Kingdom Hearts, WoW, Halo, and many others. When you have even a fraction of all these audiences coming to this site, it will explode in popularity. I put this at number one for a reason. Other Zelda sites can survive because of their ongoing fanbase, and the updates to guides/tutorials. We can't, because we went almost defuct for a year. I say become a gaming website not exclusive to Zelda, because I, and many others, would willingly help update the site.

You are a Zelda site. But, having a Zelda site is one of the hardest sites to keep a community on, because there is no news. Other sites like The Hylia, and Zelda Dungeon, have a great amount of people, because THEY UPDATE GUIDES, AND DID NOT HAVE A STALLING PERIOD OF ALMOST A YEAR. Tell me Kamakazi, when was the last time the site was updated besides the front page, and what was it? If I was Jack, I would be ashamed at the lackluster work around here. When he was here, the site was awesome. Now, really tell me that the site is a good Zelda site without lying.

First things first, you are already off on your statement as it is. Zelda Dungeon is popular because of their guides. Not necessarily because they are updating on guides, but mostly because they have them. Mases and company did a excellent job at optimizing their content on the site for SEO, Search Engine Optimization. To this day, I think 70% or more of their viewership is directly off google searches, as they are nearly first page for everything related to Zelda. They did a excellent job at doing that, and it took awhile before they were able to pull it off. Naturally, they capatalize on that too by getting ST content already out, and getting front page on that too to get even more views. To a point, you are correct that Zelda Dungeon can attribute their hits to guides and keeping them updated, but even if htey stopped for a year they would still get a lot of viewers. They are set up that way.

The Hylia... totally different story. One has to wonder if you have even been to the site in the past year or so. Ever since TSA sold it to Yusuf to persue his newer site, http://zentendo.com , content isn't exactly what they specialize in. DSCubed was brought on board and for the longest time he merely replaced a lot of what made The Hylia popular in the first place: News Reporting. That is still what he does. In fact, if you go back to what TSA was doing with the site, it was popular due to just that: News Reporting. So... I am confused.

Then, would you look at that, ZeldaInformer came along. A new site. Just a mere 2 years old, already gaining in popularity. What do we specialize in? Articles. Of course, that's not all now is it? One glance at the site and you will see that ZI is clearly the front runner on Zelda News. We get several viewers a day because of it.

Wait a second, you claimed there is rarely news? Sure, if you consider "actual" news, in terms of just things relating to new games, yeah their isn't a whole lot. However, there is a lot of news all around. Fans creating things, ebay auctions, top 10 lists galore, new Zelda Manga, official sound tracks being released, speculative pieces on zelda games yet to come, not to even mention the articles we write within the site itself. There is PLENTY of news to report: Hell I have a pile right now of around 7 things to report still at ZI all related to Zelda... but you claim that is not possible. Well, guess what, it is. ZI and The Hylia are living proof of this fact. Two sites that live purely off news. Yeah, we do have content at ZI too, but that is always secondary. The attraction is our index page, always has been and that isn't going to change anytime soon. So, in short, your point one is easily defeated as there are working examples out there of sites live completely off point one and are fairly popular.
First things first

Problem #2. I am going to put it two you straight. The front page sucks. I know we are a desert-themed website, but solid browns and tans look horrible.
Solution: We need someone who can make a good website format. I think we should go with a nice blue grey like Exploding Deku Nut.

EDN's layout, while "ok", is one of the worst layouts in the community. Neon is bad. If you wan to starting talking about good layouts to use as examples, look at sites like my own, Zelda Elements, or possibly even Hyrule.net. I wouldn't suggest the EDN route, or the Zelda Universe and Zelda Dungeon routes, because personally all of it is overly complicated for the user. And, the only thing really wrong with this site's current layout is the moving header. It gives me a headache, and it needs to go away. The imagery with the - - - - - isn't exactly appealing either, but overall the layout itself isn't all that bad. It's better then EDN's, IMO (that is, if the header didn't move).

2) I personally created the newest version of the layout and I am insulted by your comments. Not to mention, Jack personally requested that I not change the layout when I first took his job - I got his permission to change it as much as I did, and as a tribute to his layout that MOST of us have grown to know and love, the colors remained mostly the same. Jack even wanted me to make the old layout an option - if I thought I could do it easily, I would. On top of it all, TDC's coding is nightmarish, and I have neither the patience nor the time to recode it from scratch just so I can use a newer layout.

You may not have been around long enough to appreciate TDC for what it is, but a lot of us have. I am trying to improve the site as much as I can, the SandCast is the perfect example of this; and, before you start complaining, it's a monthly podcast, which is why there hasn't been a second episode yet.

But most of all, there is no way TDC can thrive as any kind of site if it has naysayers such as yourself. Helping does not equal trying to change everything. Helping is when you improve what is already in place. You wanted to be on the SandCast, yourself - that is helping. Calling TDC a "ghostland" and saying that its "front page sucks" is not. It's not very nice of you, either.

As for it being a Ghost Land: Just a mere 2 months ago the ZI forums were practically dead. There were a few staff in the staff boards... and that was that. Did that mean the site was dead? Hardly, we were getting over 1k unique views a day. Sometimes, believe it or not, people come to the site for the site, not the forums. Moving on to the actual comments above: You need to stop getting offended this bad because someone doesn't like your layout. There are people that don't like our layout at ZI, but were not about to get offended by it. It happens a lot, and really it's just something you need to deal with in general. It's critcism, and myself have given a lot of it over the years. Just accept it for what it is and either make changes, or ignore it all together. One complaint does not mean something is actually wrong, just that they personally do not like it.

It's all fine and dandy that you think the layout is a tribute. The only problem is that it looks like it was made in MS Paint. You even said it yourself that you didn't have the patience to rework the layout, nightmarish or not, what does this say about your work ethic. All of the stalling period could have been used to rework the layout one step at a time.

Um: http://www.techepics.com/files/beautiful_mspaint_artwork_t.jpg <--- MS Paint. Anyone who uses the MS Paint excuse really needs to just stop while they are behind. It's a cop out, and a bad one. MS Paint is a excellent free tool when used properly, and there are a ton of excellent MS Paint works. The old layout at this site was great, and the new one is ok save a few issues I have with it, one of which does not include the color scheme. It's also fairly obvious it was not made in MS Paint, but I digress. His work ethic isn't in question: This is a hobby. You put into that the time you have. For the time he had, it looks damn good.

Quite frankly, when you have only about 13 constant posters on the forums...

Again sir, since when does forum activity = site activity? Been to Zelda Dungeon's forums? They are semi active, but not even REMOTELY close to how active the site is. Don't believe me? Zelda Dungeon pulls in roughly the same viewership as Zelda Universe, and I think you'll find a distinct difference between the two forum communities on activity.

[FunTykoon]

Good Job bringing in the troops, Kamakazi, good job.

The Hylia is not doing so great, I see. I was going to use Zelda Informer or another site as a example, but I couldn't be bothered to research.

Maybe forum activity doesn't equal site activity, but besides What Makes Zelda Great, no updates have been made. Other than the Sandcast.

When Jack was looking for a new webmaster, I personally think Kamikaze should have kept his hand down. Maybe he didn't forsee these personal problems coming, then I understand.



Either way, I am sorry. I will help to work on the website if I can, and I am sorry if I insulted you. I just thought a little change would help around here.

[Testy McTestTest]

I didn't expect anyone to post (I don't even know who scherzo is), but if the forums weren't down, people would have posted anyways. So don't be too surprised.

There was no way I could foresee a lack of time to take over for the site, but I can explain exactly why I took the job from Jack. For one, it didn't look like Jack was even trying to find anyone to replace him at the time - I actually volunteered. I had also recently worked on a Zelda site of my own, so I knew I had at least some ability as far as web design goes; also, I had just taken a class that year in school, and I already knew Flash and CSS. But I also loved TDC, and I knew that if Jack wasn't around and there was no webmaster, it would die completely.

It may not seem like I keep TDC alive much, but there is one fundamental difference between me and Jack: I will always be around. No matter how busy I am in real life, I will always be available. So if the forums stop working, as they have now, I will be there to try to fix it (as it is, I took time away from a very important assignment to try to fix it, the first two days). If HA2 needs screens or item pictures uploaded, I am there to do that. I'm available to upgrade the forums when necessary, to put up fan submissions if they get sent to me, and to take care of the site in any way necessary. Jack was no longer able to be that guy, and I personally did not trust anyone else to do that for him. Even going into college now, I will remain ever-vigilant. If it means less content from me personally, then that's how it will have to be, but I will always do what's necessary to keep TDC up and running.

Yes, there have been no updates besides WMZG and the SandCast, but as Bomby and I specified, other sites have staff members who create content. We don't here at TDC, and you can't honestly expect me to equal the level of content that can be found on Zelda Dungeon, or other sites like it, on my own.

The Hylia is indeed a news site, and I've even cited it as a source for some of the news I've posted on the main page. Lately I've taken to setting up the feed of Zelda news from Kotaku, but I haven't posted any because I've been dealing with the forums and, honestly, I don't think it's important enough to warrant taking time from that. Most TDCers just want to see the forum go back up, and they won't appreciate my using valuable time to post about Triforce sightings in Google logos.

I'm glad you're sorry, and I hope you mean it. Your apology is accepted, and I apologize for overreacting. Nathan is right, I should take criticism better, but I am proud of the layout I took the time to create alone, and your attacking it hit a sore spot. I welcome change here at TDC, but not the radical ones you suggested. As you pointed out yourself, I can't be expected to run a site about multiple video games or create a brand new layout, but not because I'm incompetent and lazy; it's because I don't have the help I need to do that kind of stuff. If TDC had some more, decent, reliable staff members (there was a point where I hired a few, and most of them stopped posting within the month), then it would be more active. It's as simple as that.

[FunTykoon]

Sometimes I just have these little spasms.


But really, Kamikaze, TDC is, and always will be, the best Zelda site in my eyes.