Abortion?

[Momoji]

once the fetus is formed the baby is alive therefore having an abortion could be considered murder which isn't only a sin but a crime(or felony)

-holds up tootsie pop-
I totally agree with you on that one!

[darkphantomime]

Lots of things are crimes these days, it's a loose interpretation of everything. Even suicide is considered a crime. What then for one who commited suicide? Lock up his body?

Heh, It's not completely hormones, and you think you can control, but it cannot simply be helped. It's always the man who has the final word in society, rarely the woman. It is the man that gets her pregnant, but the man doesn't understand or share these responcibilities that are a deep burden. The honest thing is we don't honestly show enough understanding for people's choices.

A majority of things are blamed on women. But it's the man that's gotta put on the protection. It's the man that's gotta be more gentler to the woman. SO many things, so many injustices have been blamed on women, and what will it take to realize beyond one's views?

Not enough understanding, and when the strictest comes to strictest, it is the Man that makes a deadly thing.

[LadyNintendo]

Murder is a crime according to the law and could be considered a sin.

However, I said something about  "death" of the fetus earlier. The reason I used " ", is because a fetus is only technically alive. Of course it depends how old it is. But in the early stages, it is the same as one of those people who are being kept alive by machines. Sure, the difference is there is hope/future for the fetus, and not for those people. But I wouldn't consider shutting of the machines murder either.

How come getting pregnant is the woman's fault? Didn't the man want sex either and didn't he choose to not use protection either? But I guess men got nothing to fear. A woman should be more aware of the consequences than a man, but telling her what she has to do with her body can never be justified.
It's also not about the child eventually being, but about those nice nine months you will have to carry it. So adoption is not an equal alternative. Women are free to choose it, but it's not only about who has to take care of teh child once it's born.

[alical]

Sometimes protection doesn't work there are many reasons. Also as Lady Nintendo said, those 9 months can be awful for some people. They have to take time off work and often risk getting fired, they can be vilonetly sick, and other side effects.  

[TP Zelda]

You know, if you don't want to have a child because it hurts alot, don't worry! They're pills that make the pain go away, but it has a little sensation for when you need to push. And if it doesn't work, the nurse's will try to get you to look at something and try to get your mind off of how much it hurts.

[Howl]

I'm totally pro-life

[LadyNintendo]

You know, if you don't want to have a child because it hurts alot, don't worry! They're pills that make the pain go away, but it has a little sensation for when you need to push. And if it doesn't work, the nurse's will try to get you to look at something and try to get your mind off of how much it hurts.

:o

I actually didn't know how to reply to that for awhile.

With all respect, but have you any idea what you are saying? How you reduce a woman to a breeding machine? If she complains, feed her some pills and it's okay? Pain is only one aspect of pregnancy. Mental and physical damage (different per case) afterwards are another aspect. Or are therapy and pills a better alternative than getting rid of what you didn't want in the first place?

Also, the actual birth requires NINE months of physical problems. Now, if a woman wants the child, then it's not a problem. She chooses to have a child and chooses to also take any problems that come with it. Love (or whatever it is in this case) is the only thing that truly can give comfort.

So what if the woman really doesn't want the child? Because she's disgusted by it because it's the child of her rapist. Because she never wanted it in the first place but something went wrong (one way or another). Nothing of meaning can help that woman get through it if she really doesn't want it. You can't do that to her.

I understand that the child has certain rights too, but it loses only a life that hasn't begun yet. There's a difference between a woman that chooses to abort the fetus and one that kills a born child. A fetus may be alive, but it's still a life that is waiting for its start. It has no memories, no thoughts, it can't survive on its own. Technically "it" was already alive before it was formed, but that apparently can be ignored. Life is when it has those, conscience, and when it can lose those.

I also want to ask of you dedicated pro-lifers, who of you has the guts to actually tell a woman she may not choose what happens with her body. That it's her own fault that she "couldn't control her hormones" or "wore that mini-skirt". Or that it doesn't matter that the child will probably be born with a horrible disease or something. That life is solely "being" and not "being decently healthy". That quality is of no importance. Who of you thinks it's reasonable to stop the woman from aborting the fetus, whether by law, words or something else?
Because I would be prepared to fight* for her right to make the choice. Freedom is one of the most beautiful things one can have, and just because a woman is a woman, she should not be denied that right in such an important matter.

*note: This only goes for women who have had no more than two abortions. Because after that, it's obvious they haven't learned from their mistakes. I still think they have the right to choose, but they also should get help.

[Hi no Seijin]

Okay, you have a point about the mother having a child by a rapist, so I'm not going to address that.  But as for the woman willingly having sex, but doesn't want to have a baby, you should realize that most of the time the mother will go through with the pregnancy (key word: most).  All of my AP Biology teacher's children were unplanned pregnancies, yet she didn't abort.  I also believe that my siblings and I were unplanned, yet here we are.  Now, my mom and my teacher were probably against abortion, but the fact remains that they still had their children.  Sometimes the unplanned becomes wanted.  I guess what I'm saying is that abortion is still the woman's choice, but even if the pregnancy is unplanned, there's still nothing wrong with givingn the child a chance.

No offense, LadyNintendo, but part of your logic seems flawed.  "A fetus...can't survive on its own."?  Well, neither can a newborn baby.  It cries to call attention to its needs because it cannot get those needs by itself.  Someone else must provide those needs, very much like a mother must provide a fetus's needs.  Now, you'll probably say a baby will grow so that it can meet its needs by itself, but keep in mind that that baby was once a fetus, who wasn't able to survive on its own until given the chance to be born so it could grow and develop.  So saying it's okay to abort a fetus because it can't survive on its own is like saying it's okay to kill a baby because it can't survive on its own.  Given the chance to grow and develop, both can potentially survive by itself.

[alical]

So saying it's okay to abort a fetus because it can't survive on its own is like saying it's okay to kill a baby because it can't survive on its own.  Given the chance to grow and develop, both can potentially survive by itself.

I don't think thats what she meant.

It has never lived it has no memories, it doesn't know anything. Its like taking sight away from a person who has been blind their whole life.
Of course I think it should have the chance to have a long happy life but if a women chooses to have an abortion, she is in no way murdering, or taking away its life.

[MasterKeyX]

But by aborting a child, you are destroying a life that is no longer your own. Just because you carry it doesnt mean you can decide wether or not it can live. It's no longer your life, its a new life and a new person. You shouldnt have the power to destroy it beacuse it's inside you and you never wanted it in the first place. Besides, if anything, give birth to the child and adopt it so it can have a chance to live.

And are you seriously saying its okay to kill the child because it hasn't had any excperiences in life? Because it has no memories, it's okay to abort it and destroy it?

[daemonsage420]

Well feti are sentient beings, so I say let em live, even if they end up suffering more and making the world more overcrowded.

[LadyNintendo]

HnS - TwilightZelda is right, that's not what I meant. A fetus dies the moment it will be outside the womb. A baby can easily be left alone for awhile and will not die. A fetus only lives by the CONSTANT effort of its mother. A baby may need to be fed, kept warm and protected, but it lives on its own.
Just like a grown-up can live on its own, but needs food, warmth too and is also dependant of others to get those (society). However, a grown-up that lives only because machines keep him/her alive is comparable to a fetus. If he/she's in coma, there's hardly any difference anymore, since both don't have a conscience (yet/anymore). Is pulling the plug murder?  

And about the first part, I'm pro-choice. CHOICE! Unplanned is not unwanted. Just because a child is unplanned, it doesn't mean the mother/parents don't want it. But it's her/their choice if they think it's "better" to not have the child, just as it is her/their choice if they decide they do want it. I don't care if most decide to have a baby (we're talking about unplanned here, and not unwanted, so it shouldn't even be an issue), the others cannot be denied their freedom because the majority makes a different choice. That's the same thing, the majority CHOOSES to have the child, while the others choose to not have it.

MK - True, but you can decide not to take care of it. Unfortunately, then it dies. But just like you can't force someone to give up one of their kidneys for a sick family member, you can't force the woman to take care of it. Abortion is not murder, but refusing to work hard/give up something to keep someone else alive. And no, it's not selfish. Suppose I would need a kidney, but my parents and siblings refuse to give me one of theirs. It would hurt, as it would be betrayal to all those years we've been together and known eachother. However, I cannot force them too, and I also won't blame them for anything, since their bodies are theirs. A fetus can't even be hurt in such a way. Suppose my parents wouldn't have wanted me and decided to abort me. I would have nothing to blame them for, because my mother has the right to decide what happens with her body. And I back then, was completely dependent of her, part of her body so to say. If she would've decided she didn't want me, then I wouldn't have known for I didn't had a conscience back then. And if theoreticaly I would get an afterlife conscience similar to what my conscience is now, I wouldn't....couldn't blame her for anything.

And no, have you read the other criteria? Conscience, ability to live on your own, thoughts. If it doesn't have that, yes then it's okay to kill it, because that's no life. Wait, what am I saying? It's not even killing, or you'll have to call breaking a rock, cd, vase etc. killing too. Maybe that's a little blunt, but life itself is worth nothing more than not-life. It's what is done with that life that makes it valuable.

[Vaati]

I tend to side with abortion. A woman should have the choice whether to give birth or not. And it's not like the baby will feel or remember anything of it.

[MasterKeyX]

Some mothers need to go to therapy after some abortions, and you're telling me that it should still be okay?
Just because a child wont feel or remember it doesnt make it ok. if i shot a person in the leg but they couldnt feel or remember it, would it be okay? i dont think it would be. its the same concept.

"I am your creator. You were in my care even before you were born."
Isaiah, 44:2

[Rev Rabies]

You know, if you don't want to have a child because it hurts alot, don't worry! They're pills that make the pain go away, but it has a little sensation for when you need to push. And if it doesn't work, the nurse's will try to get you to look at something and try to get your mind off of how much it hurts.

or have it removed via c-section