Time Magazine

[Mysterious F.]

Does anyone else subscribe?

What made me as is this very interesting article I'm reading about this woman named Michelle Rhee. The title of the article is "Can She Save Our Schools?".

[MagmarFire]

If the article title is self explanatory...

...

Please, someone, don't make me repeat it again...! D:

[Mysterious F.]

I didn't really want to spoil the article, but basically Rhee is in charge of many D.C. schools and is making several notable reforms with them. The article goes on to lists her plans for saving schools, mainly replacing those who aren't capable of doing a good job and rewarding those who do.

[MagmarFire]

"Not doing a good job"? Schools are doing exactly what they're made for: keeping young adults off of the job market.

Ironic? Yes, it is.

[darkphantomime]

Umm... You'd rather have 15-16 year olds all over the place working rather than getting a proper education before they legally become adults?

You DO realize the potential of you getting hired increases significantly if you're a high school graduate, and even more if you're a college graduate, right?

"Delaying adulthood"? That's complete rubbish.

[MagmarFire]

Umm... You'd rather have 15-16 year olds all over the place working rather than getting a proper education before they legally become adults?

You DO realize the potential of you getting hired increases significantly if you're a high school graduate, and even more if you're a college graduate, right?

"Delaying adulthood"? That's complete rubbish.

For your first statement, you act as if it hasn't happened before.

And yes, I do realize that. But then we go back to forgetting what we have learned because there's hardly an application for it in our lives.

For your final statement, it is hardly an argument. Ever heard of "backing up your arguments"?

[darkphantomime]

You don't think I, as a person in College, am experiencing adulthood? Or that thousands, millions of others that have gone through college aren't experiencing adulthood when they got to college. For many of us, this is our first dose of true independance. And when you say it just 'delays adulthood' when someone becomes more learned about his world... that kinda pisses me off, because you're overlooking how fundamental education is in improving society.

You think that all things that don't have an application, that aren't 'used' will essentially be forgotten? When someone takes classes and learns about the world, how he chooses to use the application is his own choice, but you're basically saying that someone shouldn't be given that choice to learn something because, whoop-de-do, you have a magic globe that tells you what WILL become useful and what won't!

[MagmarFire]

You think that all things that don't have an application, that aren't 'used' will essentially be forgotten? When someone takes classes and learns about the world, how he chooses to use the application is his own choice, but you're basically saying that someone shouldn't be given that choice to learn something because, whoop-de-do, you have a magic globe that tells you what WILL become useful and what won't!

In the orange text, yes, I do. Do I remember all the steps in, say, glycolysis? No, because I have had no use for it. Why is it that people should expect me to remember complex subjects like that if I never apply them?

In the black text, once again, you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. Of course one should be given the choice to apply what he or she learns! That's kind of the point of learning, isn't it? What I'm saying is that the government and business pretty much twist our arms to learn things we probably aren't going to use--and for a considerable part, it's stuff that people don't particularly enjoy.

If someone wants to take a physics class and is well aware that he or she is never going to use it and is just taking it for the sake of it, then hey, I see nothing wrong with that.

You're pretty much describing the complete opposite of what I'm saying. I'm advocating that someone should be given the choice to learn something and use it how he or she pleases. By the way we have things set up now, though, we're learning that and stuff we're being made to learn that we do not particularly enjoy.

Given the choice between a subject you absolutely love and a subject you absolutely abhor, which would you choose: the one you love or both of them?

[darkphantomime]

When you're in college Mags, choice becomes everything. Decisions become everything. But in High School, it is important that you do well. Sure, you may learn some things that some may think are 'boring' or 'painfully dull', but a general education, emphasizing a core curriculum allows someone to be given a broad knowledge over many things. And once one graduates from High School, you can pursue whatever you want. It's very important that minds today be introduced to many things, so they may make an open choice on their career after experiencing everything.

But even in college, there are still a core set of classes (but the decision making process is MUCH MORE FREE in what you can choose to do and work with).

What constitutes the core usually includes writing courses, so you can learn how to write in a college setting and hone your skills in writing with an emphasis on research (and 90% of college is about research). A couple of math/quantitive reasoning courses, some history courses, some 'issues' (global/political/understanding) courses, courses of scientific inquiry...

Aww, hell, I'll just link you to the General Education site of my college, UNCC so you can get a general idea of how it is. General Education and the Advising Worksheet on General Education

Pay attention to what it says about the Renaissance. Then maybe you'll get an understanding that it's not all about business and political influences not knowing what they're doing.

[Hi no Seijin]

Mags, I agree with JQ.  High school is about giving you a general education so you can see what you like, and then college is about further discovering what you like and deciding what you want to do.  Many college students change their major during their first year, sometimes twice or more.

Sure, I forgot just about all the calculus I learned in high school, but I wouldn't say taking AP Calc BC was a waste of my time.

Well, okay, maybe it was since I got a 2 on the BC part of the test, but at least I got a 3 on the AB part, so it wasn't an entire waste. >>

[Mysterious F.]

Wow, how did this come about? 

It's obvious that none of you ave read the article, so shut up. This talks more about inter-city schools, which (especially for D.C., where she's most active) have especially bad reputations for poor education. It compares a small-town elementary school in Arizona her daughters once went to and one of the best elementary schools in DC, which the daughters went to when they moved. Rhee quickly deduced that the Arizona one was very superior.

Also, notice that this is the General discussion board. Unless you have something relevant to Time Magazine or Michelle Rhee you'd like to add to this topic, you can bash it out on your PMs.

[MagmarFire]

I personally feel that what I'm saying is on topic, Whocares; with my viewpoint on the world and how most humans today live, I perceive most of the education being forced on us to be neither "good" nor "bad"--rather, I perceive the action of forced education to be bad. Pray tell, what does this woman qualify as "poor education"? That scores aren't high enough?

Hold this thought for a second, and I'll reply to HNS and JQ.

When you're in college Mags, choice becomes everything. Decisions become everything. But in High School, it is important that you do well. Sure, you may learn some things that some may think are 'boring' or 'painfully dull', but a general education, emphasizing a core curriculum allows someone to be given a broad knowledge over many things. And once one graduates from High School, you can pursue whatever you want. It's very important that minds today be introduced to many things, so they may make an open choice on their career after experiencing everything.

But even in college, there are still a core set of classes (but the decision making process is MUCH MORE FREE in what you can choose to do and work with).

. . .

Pay attention to what it says about the Renaissance. Then maybe you'll get an understanding that it's not all about business and political influences not knowing what they're doing.

*see also HNS's last post*

The thing is, though, that we as humans are perfectly capable of figuring out what we like to do well before we get into more advanced studies. It's not unheard of for, say, a kid to want to become a fireman.

Experience with fire, safety, and heavy equipment aside, why not let this kid become a fireman early and get the education that really will be needed (not necessarily in that order)? That's trying out for a career, isn't it? If he or she finds out that he or she doesn't like being a fireman, he or she could always drop it altogether and try something else, maybe getting some suggestions from other people along the way. At least he or she had some application for what he or she learned. If he or she does like it, however, why not let him or her? In time, he or she will get the needed experience to perform the job more efficiently and safely, use the equipment properly, and become stronger. If he or she wants a broader understanding about the world, he or she can always get more education about it, sure. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean that it should be shoved down his throat. If he forgets about it because of the lack of application and interest, that was time lost that could've been more well spent learning something that he or she could be more enlightened in.

Here, let me quote from My Ishmael, since I am clearly not doing it justice:

"I do realize, Julie, that I have to show you how to explore this new continent that I've led you to."

"I'm glad to hear that," I told [Ishmael].

"Perhaps you'd like to hear how I first began to explore it myself."

"I'd like that very much."

"Last Sunday I mentioned the name Rachel Sokolow as the person who made it possible for me to maintain this establishment. You don't need to know how this came about, but I knew Rachel from infancy--was in communication with her as you and I are in communication. I'd had no experience of your educational system when Rachel started school. Not having any reason to, I'd never given it even a passing thought. Like most five-year-olds, she was thrilled to be going off to school at last, and I was thrilled for her, imagining (as she did) that some truly wonderful experience must be awaiting her. It was only after several months that I began to notice that her excitement was fading--and continued to fade month after month and year after year, until, by the time she was in the third grade, she was thoroughly bored and glad for any opportunity to miss a day of school. Does all this come as strange news to you?"

"Yeah," I said with a bitter laugh. "Only about eighty million kids went to bed last night praying for six feet of snow to fall so the schools would have to close."

"Through Rachel, I became a student of your educational system. In effect, I went to school with her. Most of the adults in your society seem to have forgotten what went on when they were in school as small children. If, as adults, they were forced to see it all again through the eyes of their children, I think they'd be astounded and horrified."

"Yeah, I think so, too."

"What one sees first is how far short real schooling falls from the ideal of 'young minds being awakened.' Teachers for the most part would be delighted to awaken young minds, but the system within they must work fundamentally frustrates that desire by insisting that all minds must be opened in the same order, using the same tools, and at the same pace, on a certain schedule. The teacher is charged with getting the class as a whole to a certain predetermined point in the curriculum by a certain predetermined time, and the individuals that make up the class soon learn how to help the teacher with this task. This is, in a sense, the first thing they must learn. Some learn it quickly and easily, and others learn it slowly and painfully, but all eventually learn it. Do you have any idea what I'm talking about?"

"I think so."

"What have you personally learned to help teachers with their task?"

"Don't ask questions."

"Expand on that a bit, Julie."

"If you raise your hand and say, 'Gee, Ms. Smith, I haven't understood a single word you've said all day,' Ms. Smith is going to hate you. If yo u raise your hand and say, 'Gee, Ms. Smith, I haven't understood a single word you've said all week,' Ms. Smith is going to hate you five times as much. If you raise your hand and say, 'Gee, Ms. Smith, I haven't understood a word you've said all year,' Ms. Smith is going to pull out a gun and shoot you."

"So the idea is to give the impression that you understand everything, whether you do or not."

"That's right. The last thing the teacher wants to hear is that you haven't understood something."

"But you began by giving me the rule against asking questions. You haven't really addressed that."

"Don't ask questions means...don't bring up things just because you wonder about them. I mean, like, suppose you're studying tidal forces. You don't raise your hand to ask if it's true that crazy people tend to be crazier during the full moon. I can imagine doing something like that in kindergarten, but by the time you're my age [12], that would be taboo. On the other hand, some teachers like to be distracted by certain kinds of questions. If they've got a hobbyhorse, they'll always accept an invitation to ride it, and kids pick up on that right away."

"Why would you want to have the teacher riding a hobbyhorse?"

"Because it's better than listening to him explain how a bill passes Congress."

"How else do you help teachers with their task?"

"Never disagree. Never point out inconsistencies. Never ask questions that go beyond what's being taught. Never let on that you're lost. Always try to look like you're getting every word. It all comes down to pretty much the same thing."

"I understand," Ishmael said. "Again, I stress that this is a defect of the system itself and not of the teachers, whose overriding obligation is to 'get through the material.' You understand that, in spite of all this, yours is the most advanced educational system in the world. It works very badly, but it's still the most advanced there is. . . .

". . . To return to my story, I watched Rachel being marched through the grades (and I add that she went to a very expensive private school--the most advanced of the advanced). As I did so, I began to put what I was seeing together with what I already knew of the workings of your culture and what I already knew of the workings of those cultures that you are so far in advance of. At this point, I had developed none of the theories you've heard here so far. In societies you consider primitive, youngsters 'graduate' from childhood at age thirteen or fourteen, and by this age have basically learned all they need in order to function as adults in their community. They've learned so much, in fact, that if the rest of the community were simply to vanish overnight, they'd be able to survive without the least difficulty. They'd know how to shelter and clothe themselves. At age thirteen or fourteen, their survival value is one hundred percent. I assume you know what I mean by that."

"Of course."

"In your vastly more advanced system, youngsters graduate from your school system at age eighteen, and their survival value is essentially zero. If the rest of the community were to vanish overnight and they were left entirely to their own resources, they'd have to be very lucky to survive at all. Without tools--and without even tools for making tools, they wouldn't be able to hunt or fish very effectively (if at all). And most wouldn't have any idea what wild-growing plants are edible. They wouldn't know how to clothe themselves or build a shelter."

"That's right"

--My Ishmael by Daniel Quinn; pages 130-136

Need I go on? There's more. A lot more.

[darkphantomime]

If all little boys wanted to be police officers or firemen, where would all the other jobs come from? Jobs that sustain and support the functions of society.

What about Literacy? If a kid didn't go to school, he might become illiterate. Are you suggesting that he should pursue becoming a fireman rather than taking things at stages and becoming at first, literate?

What Ishmael is an ideal to work with a system that seems broken. The way I've been talking about is also an ideal, but we have different directions on how education should work because the societies are different.

Are you disillusioned because you had bad teachers? What would you rather have pursued than the 'useless information' that you were presented with?

[Zelda Veteran]

I agree with both sides.
Magmar is only trying to say that a lot of what we're forced to learn in High School will NEVER be used. I'd like to point out, as well, that there are some classes that are downright necessities. These classes involve basic math skills, Reading and Writing skills, Basic U.S. History, and Basic Geography. Classes such as Physics, Chemistry, and Geometry are classes that should be extracurricular. The fact is, that if you don't have the capacity to pass those classes(which are mandatory), you are almost always denied the opportunity to go to college. Some people have so much trouble with classes that they'll NEVER NEED, that it sickens me. The fact that they're called failures for not succeeding in classes that teach skills that won't be used is depressing. However, here is where I agree with JQ:

In passing high school(doing the tasks brought to you, needed or not), you show that you have the maturity, the drive, the discipline, and the determination to do something whether you like it or not. Believe it or not: thats life- and not everything you have to do in life will be enjoyable.

[Hi no Seijin]

Mags, when I was in early elementary school, I wanted to be a paleontologist.  When I was in late elementary school and middle school, I was shooting for writer/cartoonist.  When I entered high school, I didn't know what I wanted to do.  By the time I left high school, I was thinking forensic science, but halfway through my first semester at college, I switched to English.  Then I left to get a degree in game design, but now I'm out of college, with a focus on my writing (and I would be more focused on it if my computer wasn't such a pile of crap >> ).

My point is, not everyone knows what they want to do, even going into high school.