Your Continuity theory?

[Hero Link]

It's even more likely that the power of the master sword was transformed into the four sword, rather than the other way around. Because then we see the Four sword and mastersworld alternating betwixt each other.

Isnt the name of the intro sword, Picori Blade? I dont think that The Master Sword, turned into, The Four Sword.

[LadyNintendo]

I might as well post my theory then.

pre-AOL story > TMC > OOT > MM > TP > TWW > PH > FS > FSA > ALTTP > LA > TLOZ > AOL

Yes, I have not played OOA or OOS. Sorry for that, but just how much could they change my theory anyway? I know bits of them, nothing too big. Just put them wherever you think they should be.

Most of this is based on what is NOT said in the games/manuals, because lots of people accept things as fact, when they are never even suggested. This is just my view on the real facts, so still nothing better, but at least not based on false facts.

First, the gods (!) created the worlds. I say gods, because I don't think the three goddesses were the only ones creating "the world". Termina was created by the Giants, who decided to stay rather than leave. We know there are more gods, so I doubt they didn't do anything. As for Termina, I think it's just another country, only the border being not land, but dimension. Not much of a difference really.

The Goddesses created the lands of Hyrule-to-be and left. They left the Triforce as we know it, or the Triforce with a fourth piece or they left both the Triforce and the Lightforce. Note, they left them in Hyrule-to-be, not in the Sacred Realm. The quote never stated it was placed in the Sacred Realm. It said that land BECAME the Sacred Realm, but it is never said when that happened or why.

A lot of centuries pass. Hyrule is created and its royal family claimed the Triforce and possibly Lightforce. At this time, the pre-events of AOL happen. Until that point, noone ever realised the bad things the power could do. It is decided that the Triforce will be locked away, only allowed to be used once more to awaken Zelda or if really needed. The Council of Sages is created, and with the help of the gods, they create the Sacred Realm, and with the help of the people, the temples. This is based on the question why the Temples were built all of a sudden. Why and when were they created? It is never mentioned in the games and is quite strange if you think about it.  I think around this time, the Four Sword and Master Sword are created for similar reasons: to protect the world against the powers of the Forces if necessary. However, because only the princess knew where the missing triangles were, it takes a few generations before they are found, thus explaining why Zelda isn't awakened back then: because she's kind of forgotten. Or it is because the war started, assuming the Triforce was not completely retrieved during the events of TMC, which is not unlikely. I believe during this time there may have been a Link, but he failed to help the princess. That would explain why Kaepora Gaebora made that remark about not believing in the hero. Because that earlier Link, during KG's time as a Sage, failed. IT IS NEVER SAID THE HERO WILL WIN. Many Links could've in fact failed their quest.

The events of TMC happen. I think this is the first legend, because of the fact the Four Sword is not used to repel Ganon's evil; only the Master Sword is. Those swords are incredibly similar (very likely created by the same people at the same time, or at least at the same time) there must be a reason why it was never used to defeat Ganon or why it wasn't "brought into safety" like the Master Sword when Hyrule got flooded. Because it still was needed to keep Vaati imprisoned! Also, if the Light Force got lost because Vaati took the biggest part with him when he got imprisoned, it might explain why it is never mentioned in later games: it is forgotten. With OOT being the next legend, the bridge is made. After all, the designs of Zelda's dress and the Hylian Shield could be old references to the Light Force, which nobody understands anymore. Therefore, the design of the Hylian Shield gets changed somewhere between OOT and TP, because no one knows why that fourth triangle is there in the first place.

War of the races. Possibly the final missing piece is retrieved around this time.

OOT happens. I'm not gonna explain why I put OOT this early, because I assume most of you can think of about a zillion reasons yourself. After Link defeated Ganon, Zelda gives him back the seven years he missed. She sends him back to the moment he travelled to the future/present for the last time. After all, the sword sends him back to the last point each time too. This way, he gets a chance to live those seven years while nothing else chances. His at that time sleeping self will save Hyrule after seven years. I don't get why people claim a paradox gets created, or different timelines. One timeline works perfectly. Link gets send back WITH the Ocarina (Zelda said "Close the Door". How is he supposed to do that without the Ocarina if he needed that to open the door in the first place?) and a few other items. The ending of OOT never happened, but is just a memory, because when should it happen? Did she send him back to the moment he first entered Hyrule? First of all, she would be stealing part of his life then, and I don't think she would do that. It would also be dangerous, because then he would be able to ruin it for his younger self. What I think happened is that Link got send back to the earlier described moment. Navi left, and Link started a search for Zelda (who fled with Impa). He eventually found her and spent some time with her. A month would be believable. He then decided to search for Navi, possibly also realising he couldn't stay much longer without effecting the timeline. He borrowed Epona and set off.
There is no paradox, because everything that is now doubled because Link brought it back with him (including Link himself), will be unique again when the adult hero Link gets send back in time after defeating Ganon. Also, some say doubles aren't possible, but they already happened in the game itself. Link did return a few times to the moment his other self is sleeping, thus creating a double.

Events of MM. After that, Link keeps Epona for a short while and then sends her back. It's a smart horse after all. She can find her own route. What exactly happened is unclear, except that he himself never returned home. Maybe he died?

Events of TP. What's to say about a game I haven't even had the chance to play yet?

Events of TWW. Apparently, almighty gods who leave symbols of their power for the mortals, power that we know can do almost everything, are incapable of finding a better solution to imprison a "mere mortal" than to flood the entire kingdom. And it still doesn't keep him imprisoned! Anyway, after this, Link and Tetra set sail to find the new Hyrule, only to get caught up in the

Events of PH. Again, there's nothing to be said.

Hyrule gets deflooded. After all, water apparently does NOT keep Ganondorf imprisoned. Keeping the place flooded only takes up precious space and is not beneficial in any way.

I guess somewhere around here Vaati escapes for the first time and is once more imprisoned by Link.

Events of FS. Not much to say about this. Just that the pre-story described in it could never ever be TMC, like some people tend to think.

[LadyNintendo]

Events of FSA. The reason I put this before ALTTP is the obvious hint that this is when he acquired the Trident he had in ALTTP. There is one thing about this story though that's interesting: it's very possible that Vaati after this is free to do whatever he would want to. Let's look at the facts: the Four Sword is very similar to the Master Sword and both are said to be able to repel evil, not destroy it. While they may be able to destroy lesser evil, embodiments like Ganon and Vaati cannot be destroyed by them. Vaati has been imprisoned three times already. Does anyone honestly think all of a sudden the sword would be able to destroy him now? Vaati may have been used by Ganon, but he's not stupid. And the inhabitants of Hyrule are not very subtle about "there being a bigger force than Vaati". It's just an idea, but I think Vaati noticed that. Or he noticed the hordes of henchmen that were not his. Either way, I think he just faked death in FSA, knowing Ganon wouldn't leave Link much time to question the ease with which he "killed" Vaati. I have no idea though what could've happened to him eventually. He still has most of the Lightforce.

Events of ALTTP. To everyone who believes OOT is not the pre-story mentioned in ALTTP, sorry, but it is. Except for two things, it all fits and we can blame those misfits on the enormous time between OOT and ALTTP. All the other differences are based on bad translations. I do wonder how he escaped the Four Sword and what happened in between. It does get a bit foggy here though, since Link had the complete Triforce at the end, but Ganon has the ToP at the beginning of TLOZ. Maybe Vaati messed up something, trying to regain his power with Ganon out of the way. Anyway, the Triforce is split again and the ToC is hidden to make sure the power of the Triforce won't be misused again.

Events of LA. I don't have any particular reason to put it here. It was released after ALTTP and introduced as its sequel, so I guess I could just as well put it here.

Events of LOZ. Generations later again. Ganon (I have no clue how he came back to life. Possibly the same ritual needed to revive him in AOL) gives it another try, but is once more stopped and supposedly killed.

Events of AOL. With the bigger evils finally gone and a hero present, the time has come to awaken she who survived the ages. The scroll Link gets "was talking" to him, right? I guess that was a telepathical message from that little imp dude. What else could've been his role? I mean, he's locked up in this dungeon infested by monsters. Where does he get food? Why is he there? He could summon Shadow Link, so I guess he's pretty powerful. So I assume he was talking to Link through the scroll. The "I" in the scroll appeared/appears to be pretty powerful too. I do admit I did everything in my power to come up with a theory to put the pre-story of AOL at the beginning, because that feels like it should be and makes quite a beautiful ending to the legend. The first victim of the power of the Forces finally awakens after the deaths of its biggest misusers. A nice symbol that this time, peace will be eternal.

Feedback will be highly appreciated.  :)

[darkphantomime]

Edit: D'oh, it took me so long to type all this that I didn't notice that you had posted new stuff... and you double posted! Fix it...

I guess you didn't really read what I had to say in full. The timeline as it is so far, with the games that HAVE been released, and the games that we are simply speculating MAY be released. So far, OoT has the strongest evidence of being the first game. The war of the races preceding OoT is very important, as it shows that the hyrule we know in all the games has yet to be founded.

The timeline may change if new games are released, but as it holds now, with what games have been officially released, OoT has the strongest part of being first in the series.

Heh, might we also consider that Ganon could've taken the sword in all the other games he was featured in? The simple thing is, that he cannot even TOUCH the sword that will eventually kill him.

And besides, MC was not developped 100% by nintendo, but rather by flagship. So the possibilities of it being first decrease rapidly. Not to mention, the minish appear in only that one game. If it were the first in the timeline, where are the minish in all the other games? And don't go by by telling me that the other Link's are incapable because they aren't children. A lot of them actually ARE children.

[LadyNintendo]

I double posted because it was too long to post al at once. So it is not a double post.

I'm sorry to say this, but I don't understand what you're saying. My fault, but could you please try to find other words? In what context do you feel it is necessary to mention games that may be released? I cannot find me saying anything about them.

What I do understand is that you consider there to be a "Hyrule as we know it". Isn't it constantly changing? I can't remember one game that featured the same Hyrule. I don't think Hyrule did not exist before the war. Like I said, not one quote ever stated Hyrule was founded after the war of the races. I think Hyrule comes from the time the temples were built and quite likely even earlier than that. Battle doesn't require much, but true war requires advanced races.

Compared with the other games, OOT indeed has a big chance of being the first, but there are other competitors. They are not really comparable to the other games, but could very well be before OOT. Nothing states they couldn't be. So, I'm not just assuming OOT is, "because it's easier", "more logical" or "because everyone seems to think that", because except for that last one, it's simply not true. I'm not saying TMC comes before OOT, but I consider it more likely.

Don't get sloppy, you got good arguments before. The sword cannot kill Ganondorf, merely imprison him or something. Never has Ganondorf been killed by the Master Sword and it is, for what I remember, never stated that evil cannot touch it. And he never took the sword before, because it was hidden and/or locked in a pedestal. But if the sword is just lying there, why wouldn't he take it?

SO what? Do you know how often a game is not entirely created by Nintendo? Do you think Nintendo says: "Make game and do with it whatever you want."? Who is the Nintendo you're talking about? Many different teams worked on tloz-games, supervised by a few people that have more to do with the entire story. But even they make up everything as they go. If what you say counts, wouldn't every tloz-game have been significantly different? Why are the games, why is their atmosphere, so much alike every time? Besides, you used the OOx games to "prove" TMC's position, and now you're saying we should disregard them too? I do not see how is decreases TMC's chances.

Wait a minute...are you saying a race not shown in an earlier game means they didn't exist yet? Off course they did, or very likely did. Or is TMC the final game? But, only TWW features the Rito! So sin't that the/a final game too? Because we haven't seen them any time else. Or the Zuna?
The Minish still are around. It is apparently the explanation why all those pots and stuff filled with items are everywhere. I don't know why Link doesn't encounter them anymore. I could think of a thousand reasons. Even for the children in The Minish Cap, it was very rare if they saw one. And Link only saw them after he met Ezlo.

[Hero Link]

Is it not, Silver Arrows, who can kill Ganon?  :-\

[darkphantomime]

OH CRAP

I hate it when it takes forever to load it, so if it takes too long to get to the server of TDC, I could lose my post before it gets posted!!! AARRRRRRRGGH!!!

Anyway, I was saying that you should give more complete evidence to support your case that MC could be the first game.

The prev. Hero that KG mentions could actually be a hero of the war preceding the events of OoT. The failed hero of the War dividing hyrule. That war intriques me much, because as we see in the Shadow temple, there is a lot of mention of a dark and bloody history filled darkness with that war. Such things intrique me greatly.

Evil simply cannot touch the thing that will put them away. It would destroy balance, and there would be no light. Darkness would rule over all if that were possible. Such facts are seen in an immense variety of other games of other series.

[Evilslayer]

So far, OoT has the strongest evidence of being the first game. The war of the races preceding OoT is very important, as it shows that the hyrule we know in all the games has yet to be founded.

It's LoZ with the strongest evidence of being the first game. We know from ALttP that the Master Sword was forged during the Hylian Age. In OoT it's already legendary, so Hyrule has been united before.

I should also add that it's speculation, not fact, that the war before OoT is between the races. It's unlikely, because the Gerudo couldn't fight the Hylians, Sheikah, Gorons and Zoras on their own. It's a war of unification, so most likely it expanded beyond the Death Mountain Area/Hyrule Summit and was between the many kingdoms of Hyrule.

In AoL it's mentioned that during the reign of the Ancient King Hyrule was one kingdom. I should also mention that according the Japanese manual to LoZ Hyrule is a region. So... in LoZ Hyrule is sepparated into many kingdoms. And because the Ancient King ruled with the help of the TRIFORCE Hyrule was in a Golden Age and it fits very well as the Hylian Age mentioned in ALttP.

Now I come to Ganon. Nowhere in OoT does it say, or even hint, that it's the first time Ganon attacks. In fact, Twinrova is his surrogate mother, which leads me to think that she/they resurrected him through childbirth.

In LoZ, however, it's said that he comes from a 'world of evil'. Originally I thought it was the Dark World, but because the one who wrote the translation guide to LoZ at Zelda Legend made no references to the Dark World I wonder...

So, my guess is that that's the first time he invades, and this 'world of evil' is his home world.

[Hero Link]

Didnt Shigeru hint, that OoT, was one of the beginnings and LoZ is one of the last of the Timeline?  :-\

[LadyNintendo]

Hl - Those Japanese dudes have said so much, I don't take anything for true anymore, unless it's specifically stated in the game or instruction manual. TWW just a hundred years after OOT? Don't make me laugh. Just what is meant by "one of the last/first"? Djeez...until fairly recently, they didn't even know where to put TP, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out it couldn't possibly fit between OOT and TWW. I think it's up to the fans rather than them to come up with a good timeline. After all, the creator puts the love in his work, the fan puts the life in it.

Df - I'll leave our discussion about TMC and OOT for now to the other topic, hoping to see it will get a few good replies to add to our discussion. If it doesn't, we can just continue here. :)

I do wish to reply though, that "other games" are not The Legend Of Zelda. I haven't seen one thing that could mean only the hero/a good person could touch it and evil never could. The swords are important, but not really vital. Link has been able to do "smaller" tasks without the swords, has been known to have to depend on other items too and best of all, can't even finish Evil with the any of the two swords. He needs the silver arrows to accomplish that. That means there are three weapons to defeat the Evil: Four Sword, Master Sword and Silver Arrows. Other weapons can buy quite some time, like other swords or Light Arrows. I don't think Evil is able to destroy  them though, only weaken them (Sages, Royal Jewels). I'd also like to point out that no special weapons were needed to defeat/destroy Majora's Mask. So, no balance will be destroyed. And otherwise, the Deku Scrubs weren't evil in FSA, yet they were loyal to Ganon. Couldn't he have asked/ordered them to hide the sword somewhere the hero would really not be able to find it, if he really would be unable to touch it? The fact is, he never steals the swords, because he never knows where they are or is unable to steal them due to the "three items" security system. I think it's very likely though that he took the Four Sword with him when he escaped.

Es - I like to read your theories. While I do not always agree with them, you always prove to know all the background info.

I know the war is never stated to be one between the races, but due to a few quotes in OOT, I tend to think the war was for territory and rule. So not necessarily Gerudo vs. Goron, Zora vs. Hylian etc.., but definetely a war in which race mattered. If (either) TMC (or LOZ) would indeed come before OOT, it might suggest that it is the result of growing tensions as more and more races immigrated to the place known as Hyrule in OOT. I agree that the war (probably) has reached other places not shown in OOT.

Actually, I think Ganondorf originally was born Gerudo. One that in a time long gone by became the demon Ganon, and indeed once got resurrected by Twinrova. Because he really, really seems to like his Gerudo form. And it just seems weird if that form was not truly his, since Ganondorf doesn't look like the type that cares much for his looks.
It has been shown there are many dimensions in The Legend Of Zelda. I see them as more conveniently placed other countries/worlds in most cases. I think one of those dimensions was claimed by Ganon when he first appeared.

[darkphantomime]

Too many things are lost in translation from Japanese to english. Because Japanese is a very hard language to translate properly. Don't go bashing Aenoma or Miyamoto, because they are the heads of the game development. Oftentimes when we don't realize something and get confused, they'll go on and help us out.

It's not 100 years, if you really want to know the facts of that interview, go over to zeldablog and read article "connections between Windwaker and TP" Blame the translators who make mistakes and can't translate worth crap.

If anything their words should be taken as canon, since they are the ones who create the games, and who go over every little detail.

We should also be a little weary over ingame translations, because things can get changed in localization. Making things awry for people who go over every little thing.

[LadyNintendo]

We get confused? I once read in an interview they don't even know for sure what timewise happened at the end of OOT.

A link to that article would be appreciated as I am unable to find it following your instructions (even when typing "twilight princess" rather than tp). I understand bad translations are not to be blamed on Aonuma and Miyamoto. Yet, I doubt all of them are bad translations. I mean, for the bit of Japanese I know, I know it's a tough language, but those translators really should be making up things to get that many and awkward mistranslations. And I somehow doubt that's the case.
Besides, does it make a difference? I say we shouldn't take their words for truth because it's bs. You say it's the translators' fault. In your case, that means we still can't trust "their words", so we cannot base any theory on anything outside the game, unless we know Japanese and can understand the interviews in their original language.

We can trust the english translations of OOT and younger games. ALTTP is a bit different, but I think the big line can be trusted and most mistakes can be spotted by going to zeldalegends' manual translation. But starting with OOT, the translation has been good. A game is first played to understand what it needs to be, and then translated by the same people who know both english and japanese. Also, if I can't trust the ingame translations, then what am I supposed to trust? Then nothing remains. I trust them, just because I trust the current way of translating and because I don't have a choice (neither do you).

[darkphantomime]

http://www.zeldablog.com/2005/10/10/tps-connection-to-ww/

That's the article I mentioned.

What we have ingame, we can trust quite a bit. But when people go to such extents as to scrutinize over every little detail, then THAT's when we're asking for trouble. I mean, we had the problem connecting LttP and OoT because we had to go over every single word. I mean, we should be able to automatically put two and two together and say that sages = Wise men. You could also read  Imprisoning war ambiguities for more on that.

http://www.zeldablog.com/category/timeline/

All of the articles provide much thought and conception. So take a read.

[LadyNintendo]

Thankies  :)
I'll take that part back, but then I still know about eight different things "said" in different interviews I know are not true. All mistranslations? I'm prepared to believe so, but I still take "their words" only as secondary canon.

As for the OOT and ALTTP connection, for as far as I know there are only about two things that don't really match, and even they can match if you give it more than the initial thought about it. The rest is mistranslation. By now, I also think a few things mentioned in ALTTP do not solely refer to OOT. Especially the Seal part. I think that now also refers to FSA. I've already read that article once. I love Zeldablog and Zeldalegends for their articles and great theories. I don't alway agree (and hardly ever 100%) but they do make you think and look at the "evidence" again.

However, the difference between the details about that war and random other details is that we know where to look for the first's statements and can compare them as a group. All other details cannot be just related to eachother and should be individually treated. Therefor, they are harder to to compare and say: "well, these two details/events are the same", because we can't see the bigger picture like with the Imprisoning War.

[Hero Link]

Ladynintendo? It seems like, that you have a rival. http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?p=848

He says, that there are 2 timelines and i agree with him. Read it if you have VERY MUCH time.