The Sinking Ship of Nintendo

[Hi no Seijin]

Before you tell me Zelda is for kids, put a kid behind the controller of a Zelda title (and Zelda title) and see how long it keeps their interest. I made a genuine effort to get my little cousin to play, but he claimed the puzzles were too hard. Some of the puzzles give me trouble.

I hardly think puzzle difficulty is used as an indicator of what is for kids and what isn't.  Some people are good with puzzles; some people aren't.  It doesn't matter how old you are.

Yes, it's where the money's at, but that doesn't mean that they have to stop making games for the older kids.

When has Nintendo ever made a franchise that targets exclusively to older gamers?

That's what I was thinking.  I can't speak for Nintendo before they got into video games, but since then they have always been about family entertainment.  What we know as the NES was called the Famicom in Japan.  Take a guess as to what "Famicom" is shortened from.  If you guessed "Family Computer," then you're right.  Some of Nintendo's first-party games have strayed into darker and edgier territory, but I highly doubt that they'll start producing games like Bioshock or Grand Theft Auto.

Again, there are third-party games for the Wii.  If consoles had to rely solely on first-party games, then I doubt any of them would be as successful as they are today.  If Nintendo itself isn't producing a game you're interested in, then there are plenty of other games on the Wii; you just need to give them a chance.

Another solution would be to buy a PS3 or XBox 360.  Owning a Nintendo console doesn't bar you from buying anything else; the only obstacle would be funds.  I own both a DS and a PSP, and most other gamers I know own both Nintendo and Sony consoles.  While I'm sure Nintendo appreciates consumer loyalty, I doubt they require it.

[Deku]

HNS, you may be misconstruing what we want. We don't want adult games. Xbox and Playstation are doing that just fine. Nintendo will never beat them when it comes to that category. I hate Grand Theft Auto, and I wasn't a fan of Bioshock either. I think he said, "older kids" and by that I think he means the things that older kids know and love. This includes but is not limited to:

Zelda, Star Fox, Metroid, Pokemon, etc.

While they ARE making these games, they're few and far between everything else.

I hate arguing. Everything I've said in this thread I've been attacked for. Sorry for having an opinion.

This is my last post in this thread. You all know where I stand.

[Hi no Seijin]

I'm sorry you feel like you're being attacked, ZV, but what do you want me to do?  Blindly agree to everything you say?  If I did, it wouldn't be much of a discussion.

As for "older kids"?  It sounds to me like you mean "hardcore fans."  But you know what?  All those games you mentioned have been around for twenty-plus years.  The "older kids" when they first debuted are adults now.  Fans jumped into the series at different times, and Nintendo can't focus on pleasing one age group; they are going to create a game that will appeal to all age groups while trying to draw in new fans.  You're acting like Nintendo has to cater solely to the hardcore fans, but that is not their modus operandi, and it will never be.  The reason why their first-party games are so few and far between is because they're trying to create the best game they can, and that takes time.  Yes, I wish it didn't take so long either, but I understand that time is the price you pay for a quality game.  Surely Nintendo can be forgiven for that?

[Pale Dim]

I hate Grand Theft Auto, and I wasn't a fan of Bioshock either.

Finally, someone else who shares my opinion!
When it comes to what age group Nintendo has been targeting nowadays, I would just like to point out the censorship that Nintendo took into in the first place. Consider the following:

Final Fantasy VI originally had very exposing sprites for some of the espers and enemies. Nintendo decided to have censorship take place, and the parts in question were completely covered, especially for it's U.S. release as Final Fantasy III.

Originally, Nintendo had a strong firm in it's censorship that it wouldn't even allow swearing into the games, no traces of nudity, nothing. You have to think about it: What were the censorships for in the first place?
It was to prevent kids from being exposed to anything that might corrupt them in the future. Looking back, it really didn't make a difference in the way I grew up, I was destined to swear ever since I turned 17. But still, they are thinking about the targeted group, and although I do not agree with the games they are releasing now (Carnival games comes to mind, along with Hannah Montana and anything referring to Sonic the Hedgehog), I still see some great things for Nintendo. I had no idea until recently that they released Silent Hill or Resident Evil 4 for the Wii until I watched the Youtube series "Two Best Friends Play". They have spanned out since the days of the SNES, and I will forever miss the days they made good games like Chrono Trigger (which, btw, was just released on the virtual console VERY recently).

Now that I think about it, it seems like they aren't making any games anymore, they are just spending time working on the Virtual Console...>_>
Not only that, but it seems like they are only porting older games to the Wii....
You know what Nintendo? It's getting harder to defend you with every word I type!

[MagmarFire]

But still, they are thinking about the targeted group, and although I do not agree with the games they are releasing now (Carnival games comes to mind, along with Hannah Montana and anything referring to Sonic the Hedgehog), I still see some great things for Nintendo. I had no idea until recently that they released Silent Hill or Resident Evil 4 for the Wii until I watched the Youtube series "Two Best Friends Play". They have spanned out since the days of the SNES, and I will forever miss the days they made good games like Chrono Trigger (which, btw, was just released on the virtual console VERY recently).

Now that I think about it, it seems like they aren't making any games anymore, they are just spending time working on the Virtual Console...>_>
Not only that, but it seems like they are only porting older games to the Wii....
You know what Nintendo? It's getting harder to defend you with every word I type!

Pretty much all the games that you listed are third-party titles, which are not games that Nintendo itself makes. There is a difference between publishing and developing, and with a large company like Nintendo, which has many different departments, I sincerely doubt that publishing affects development time. I'm also pretty sure that the reason all the shovelware gets released is because Nintendo's criteria for being published aren't very strict. Moreover, if I recall correctly, there's a law in the U.S. saying that third-party developers are free to publish their games onto first-party consoles if they so choose, or at least it was that way, waaaaaay back in the 70s. I believe that this is what helped Activision make its break as a third party back in Atari's day.

In regards to development, this isn't back when video games were first being developed where the only people on development teams were a single programmer. Games take a much longer time to make now, and require many more people to get done in that longer time. Heck, you'd be surprised how long a small, custom game takes to make. Just be patient. Or, if you must, put yourselves into Nintendo's shoes and try to make a quality, large-scale game yourselves. Warning: It's not easy.

I'm sorry you feel like you're being attacked, ZV, but what do you want me to do?  Blindly agree to everything you say?  If I did, it wouldn't be much of a discussion.

QFT. We're not attacking you, ZV. We're attacking your argument. There's a big difference, and it's kind of what people do in debates like this. If we were attacking you, we'd be saying, "lol stupid ur opinyun sux!1"

[MasterKeyX]

Weighing in a bit late on this one, but here are my opinions on Ninty lately...

I really wish Nintendo would get their s*** together.

I really love Nintendo. Seriously, it has formed countless childhood memories for me, and (even if you aren't an ultra nerd gamer), you've probably played a few Nintendo games. The characters that Nintendo has employed and made famous are now cultural icons. It wouldn't be entirely implausible to liken Mario to Mickey Mouse in magnitude.

However, despite the fact that Nintendo is a driving video game force and regardless of the fact that it has almost single-handedly revolutionized the world of interactive  electronic gaming, our friend Ninty has failed in various ways, despite the explosive commercial success of the Wii.

Let me highlight a few that seriously irk me.

   1. Nintendo has, in many ways, sold out. The Wii console is absolutely littered with terrible third party titles that nobody in their right mind would buy. Do you not believe me? Examples include the laughably bad Game Party and the outright horrid Carnival Games. However, despite the s*** that producers put out on the Wii, casual gamers buy them because they don't care. That's what the market demands, and Nintendo knows it will make them more money in the long run. But that's the definition of selling out. Nintendo has sold their console out to pathetic publishers and the bullcock needs to stop. I can't even find a decent Wii game if I wanted to; the shelves are covered in literal junk. But when I look at 360 and PS3 games, there are significantly less terrible third party titles. I wonder why that is? Get it together. It gives your console a very bad name in the hardcore community's eyes. (see below, last few paragraphs)
   2. I'm tired of the cheap gimmicks. Okay, the DS touch screen was cool (let's not talk about the fact that most titles, even original Nintendo ones, generally don't utilize the touch screen in very creative or unique ways, that's a discussion for another time), and the motion technology of the Wii was all right for a few months, but it seems every game now is a gimmick. LOOK, THIS GAME HAS YOU WAVING THE REMOTE AT A FEW RARE MOMENTS TO DO STUFF. Even the spin feature of Mario Galaxy and the sword swinging feature of Twilight Princess just felt cheap and unnecessary, despite how fantastic both of those games are. I'm tired of it. I don't care about this new stuff. A hardcore gamer wants a pure experience: a TV, a remote control, and traditional aiming/platforming/adventuring mechanisms. This stuff is cool, but it isn't adding anything to the Nintendo experience. Old games, like those on the SNES, without all the fancy junk, are still far FAR superior in my eyes.
   3. Nintendo technology is lagging behind in many ways. Early on, Nintendo announced that it was not going to compete, hardware wise, with either Sony or Microsoft. To me, this is a complete failure and a blatant lack of drive on the part of Nintendo to do anything at all to improve either graphically or technologically. I know that Nintendo plans on winning gamers over with revolutionary ideas and games (via motion sensing, touch screen, the new 3DS, etc, see point two), but that stuff appeals largely to the casual. Hardcore gamers, like myself, love Nintendo to death. We grew up on this stuff! But we can't stick with it any longer if it's going to be so far behind in terms of, well, EVERYTHING. The Wii, unlike its competitors, can't play DVD or blu-ray disks. It can't play or store music, it's barely customizable aesthetically once you turn it on, the messaging system is flawed and slow, and the system of friend codes is outdated, restricting, and limiting. To me, Nintendo is failing big time in terms of internet play and weaving a tight knit gamer community. Given the behemoth that the company is, Nintendo could easily create a strong community of gamers if the internet capabilities of the Wii weren't, for lack of a better word, awful. Let me explain here. Nintendo, first, uses Wi-fi to connect gamers via Wii consoles. This in itself, is ridiculous. Connections are almost always slow and it makes playing anything multiplayer impossible, if not unpleasant. Super Smash Bros Brawl could have been epic online, but it was impossible to play because of poor connection speed. Sending messages, due to use of Wi-fi, is also slow, and it can't even be used reasonably to communicate effectively. In addition, Nintendo is against players meeting up randomly with others to play matches or games online. To reinforce this stance, Nintendo uses Friend Codes so each Wii owner can only play with (or communicate) via internet with people they know for sure. This system debilitates the Nintendo world in many ways. For one, gaming online is impossible this way, especially when coupled with Wi-fi connection speeds. Second, creating an online community paramount to XBox Live or PSN is impossible, and this stunts the growth of any sort of Nintendo community online or offline. This is a blatant failure and Nintendo had to get its head out of its butt.

Guys, don't get me wrong. I love Nintendo to death. To death. I have logged more hours playing Nintendo games than you could possibly imagine, and if you know me irl, on tumblr, or on any other social medium, you know that Nintendo holds a special, important place in my heart. I only express these concerns because I love the company so much that I'm willing to criticize them as harshly as is necessary to raise them out of this... funk.

I can only hope Nintendo realizes these things, and learns. Financially, Nintendo is better off than it has been since the creation of the NES in 1985, due to the commercial success of the Wii with casual gamers. But casual gamers and money aren't everything, and above all others, Nintendo should know that. Don't leave hardcore gamers out to rot. Casual gamers will come and go, but we're the base you'll always have, through thick and thin.

[Hi no Seijin]

Casual gamers may come and go, but the market itself is around to stay for years.  I see nothing wrong with Nintendo trying to appeal to the casual gamers as well as the hardcore, so long as they are still trying to appeal to the hardcore gamers.  And they do need to do more.  I agree with you that Nintendo needs to catch up with the technology (I even said as much in my first post).  Nintendo needs to implement HD, they need to fix their online gaming, and they need to add the ability to play DVD/Blu-ray.

A hardcore gamer wants a pure experience: ..., a remote control, ...

Project Cafe seems to returning to the traditional controller (albeit with a touch screen installed, a feature I am extremely iffy about), and I think this is a step in the right direction.  As neat as the Wii-mote can sometimes be, I can no longer get away from the idea that it is better suited for party games.  And even then, not always; I've played Mario Party 3 and 8, and I prefer 3 far more than 8, as 8 has some awkward controls for the Wii-mote.

Again, Nintendo need to fix their relationships with third party developers (from what I understand, they're already trying to do so); crap games for Nintendo consoles will never go away, but it would be nice to have decent third party games balance them out.

[Pale Dim]

I looked around at the selection of the games they had for the Wii, and, if we were to talk music wise, all I could think of was Elevator music. ELEVATOR MUSIC. I look over at the selection of the XBox 360 and I could think in AC/DC, Nightwish, Ozzy Osborne, and the like. I look over at the PS3 and all I could think of was Rap.

Why Nintendo? Why have you abandoned us?

I still remember seeing a Hannah Montana karaoke game there, along with some Sonic the Hedgehog crap (his games nowadays...Shadow? Really?), some other stuff that nobody wants, and whatnot...

Dude, almost everything for the Wii is...god forbid I'm actually saying this...for babies!

[Deku]

Dude, almost everything for the Wii is...god forbid I'm actually saying this...for babies!

Says the guy with the pony in his avatar.
(sorry, couldn't help it XD)

But agreed.

[Pale Dim]

I said ALMOST everything. But I did notice that Resident Evil 4 and a Silent hill game were released for the Wii, then there is Disney's Epic Mickey...

Hey, does anyone here have Epic Mickey? And if so, how is it?

[MagmarFire]

A hardcore gamer wants a pure experience: a TV, a remote control, and traditional aiming/platforming/adventuring mechanisms. This stuff is cool, but it isn’t adding anything to the Nintendo experience. Old games, like those on the SNES, without all the fancy junk, are still far FAR superior in my eyes.

Are all hardcore gamers really like that? That sounds suspiciously like a categorization based on personal preference. I consider myself hardcore, and I quite enjoy motion-sensitive/mic-based controls.

The Wii, unlike its competitors, can’t play DVD or blu-ray disks. It can’t play or store music, it’s barely customizable aesthetically once you turn it on, the messaging system is flawed and slow, and the system of friend codes is outdated, restricting, and limiting. To me, Nintendo is failing big time in terms of internet play and weaving a tight knit gamer community.

Hold it right there, muchacho! It can most certainly play DVDs (I think you have a point on Blu-ray, though), store music, and be customized. Granted, you do have to hack the framework, but in all honesty, it's not that hard today. Get an SD card, exploit Smash Stack, and boom--you can do all sorts of crazy stuff on your Wii.

However, I'll give you what you said about its online system.

Dude, almost everything for the Wii is...god forbid I'm actually saying this...for babies!

Says the guy with the pony in his avatar.
(sorry, couldn't help it XD)

But agreed.

I lol'd. XDDDD

...Not that I'm bashing the show that I totally need to get into or anything. ^^;

[MasterKeyX]

I think it's a little ridiculous that you'd need to hack or exploit a console illegally in order to get it to perform on a somehwat decent level with its competitors. To me, that's a bit of a fail.

ANd yeah, you're probably right. My judgement on hardcore gamers and what they want is heavily biased to what I want, so I'll give you that.

Touche, sir.

[MagmarFire]

It's only illegal if you use it to do illegal things. Yes, it does void your warranty, but putting software that homebrewers make themselves onto your Wii is hardly illegal; you bought the console, so unless Nintendo loses a profit from it (which they don't unless you use it for, say, piracy), you should be able to do whatever the heck you want with it. However, your general point still stands.

On the other hand, from a software point of view, is a console really better or worse depending on whether or not who it is that puts licensed software on console is the original manufacturer or a studio who has connections? The console can't be considered better simply because the guys who added functionality to the Wii don't happen to work for Nintendo? (Or most likely don't work for Nintendo.) From what I see, it's quite a win that people managed to get the Wii to do those things despite not having hardware specs in their favor.

[Pale Dim]

Wait wait wait...so you guys are saying that if I hack my Wii accordingly, I can make a game from scratch, that would normally work only for the PS3 for the Wii?

[MagmarFire]

I'm not saying it to that extreme (assuming the game requires the PS3's superior hardware specs); but I'm saying that, in general, you can really stretch the capabilities of your console if you know what you're doing, and that it doesn't make the console "worse" if the person who wrote in that functionality doesn't work for the people who made the console to begin with.