Ideas thread.

[Darth Wyndisis]

I like it.  I remember throwing out the idea of having certain skills or "careers" added to the game.  What if we could set up a system like that, where someone would have to do some kind of work to get to their "weapon making" position (in other words a mod)?

[weienw]

(It's making me cut up my post, haha) Part 1

Whew, this is the first breather that I've been able to net since my last post up there. Not sure how to organize my thoughts on everything, though... ahwell, here goes.

I'm sure everyone know what I want to see in HA2 *cough* Potion Shops *cough*.

I agree with Red that having potions would be really neat if balanced right, but I think our trouble is a system that will add/subtract a potion from inventory when the item is "consumed." Along that line I even more so like this idea:

Another example would be finding items during the quest, instead of an enemy only having keys or rupees how about finding a magic vial or heart.

Which I think would be excellent... it would be just like the Zelda games, where hearts and magic vials explode out of the monster/pot/bush when killed/broken/cut. "Anyone want these 3 hearts (5 HP each) or the small magic vial (10 SPL)?" I think that feature could be installed pretty easily in quests... as long as we don't have too many hearts/vials so that no one ever dies (which is a problem with the REF--the indestrucibility factor).

(1) MG, I like the split idea so the characters can develop backgrounds first, but I don't think this will work unless the players regulate themselves and stick to one side of the map. Also, this would presume that both sides of the map are equally civilized, whereas with HA the south was wild and untamed, while the north was civilized.

As I was in favor of this idea as well, I'd be glad to keep my character in one area of the world for a week or two; anyone who decided not to might just be more of a "roaming" type of person--couldn't hurt, right? And as for the north and south being more or less civilized, I guess that that would be a good way to figure out where your character would start. A self-sufficient barbarian, an information-hungry ranger, an hermetical (sp) herbalist, or just your average loner might be found in the untamed areas of the world, whereas you could find library-loving scribes, teachers of swordplay, rogues (who go where the people are ^_^), and other run-of-the-mill extroverts more commonly in the cities and villages. *shrug* makes sense to me :D

(1) What kind of world so we want?

(2) Storyline--would it be okay to make HA2 chronologically following HA?

I'm really open on these... either way, for any of them. Whatever world we come up with, it'll be great, and simply a whole new world, even if we overlap with HA1 or something. Also, I really don't
have too much say on Zelda tradition, seeing as my Zelda knowledge is limited to OOT (and there, I'm no encyclopedia).

(4) Races--I'm thinking Hylians, Humans, Zora, Gorons, Rito, Deku Scrubs, Fairies, Shiekah, Gerudo.

Sounds good to me. The only obstacle would be how diversity might work... we have ~9 races, and if we have less than 9 active players, we're not tapping into the awesome potential of Zelda's ethnic range! ^_^ The trick would be balance and appeal; if some class doesn't seem to have much in it that anyone would be interested in (for example, Humans or Moblins or...?), we could just trim it off. But all in all it sounds great... the 'addition' of Rito, Deku-types, and Shiekah should be interesting.

Another thing I would like to see is a wider array of weaponry, so my question to people is what Zelda-esque weapons would you like to see?

Weapons... a favorite topic. Well, I know that one thing that everyone tends to gravitate towards are weapons that induce stats. When you think about it, there are a good few weapons like this in Zelda (e.g. Deku nut for stun, hookshot for stun-like thing, explosives, etc), and all would be welcome additions. A large pallete (sp) is just fun, haha. It also leads to one feature in weapons that I particularly like, which is personalization. I personally really liked the feel of Korind being the only person in Hyrule with two Regal Blades, as it allowed me to write stuff like "a sillohuette of a figure steps quietly towards the group; his drawn blades shine with a blinding white sheen" or something, and everyone'd know who it was. Having a ton of different weapons (ranging from bows, to rangs, to throwing knives, to chain/rope based, to spear-like, to shorter melee [like swords] to unarmed) to choose from really (in my humble opinion) boosts character differentiation. The personality of someone who throws daggers is almost integrally different than someone who hefts a gleaming gold hammer on his left shoulder ('course, that's debatable).

[weienw]

Part 2

Sure, balance in weapon DMG rating and accompanying stat-inducers will be a factor in weapon choice, but perhaps skill choice will eventually make the old "whoever has the best weapon wins" mantra obsolete.

Which brings us to the skill/exp tree thoughts (you may have noticed that I've been avoiding it the entire time).

would it be based on a post or time based system? Another idea we could have would be the apprenticeship idea we had earlier...

I actually just kind of threw out the idea of a skill tree ambiguously, glad you guys managed to figure out some possibilities with it. And true, the apprenticeship/master based idea is still a good one... I don't completely remember how it'd work though, could you jog my memory? I wasn't sure what would happen after one would pick Power/Wisdom/Courage... ^^.

How about this: when you first create a character you start with say, three points of some kind. ... Then to get skill points you'd have to participate in certain events, accomplish certain mini-solo quests, etc.

This is a great idea (not to mention that it spurs on some ideas of my own), notably it's ability to have a bunch of different possible character-types from possibly only 2 or 4 classes. One problem is that it does somewhat do away completely with the first couple ideas in this thread, with basing experience on post length (basically quality writing vs base participation, like Jack said). One can easily "participate" in every quest (and only the quests) when they come around and come up with an equally powerful creation as someone who spends a lot of time developing their character and trying to make the game fun to read.

Basing character progression on events or time (as in weeks, like MG's idea) may just be difficult to figure out (for example, how to gauge whether someone gets this month's "ration" of skill slots? How to define "active"--how to handle real life vacations, etc?) But if it could be worked out, the realistic factor of the idea sounds really awesome...

One thought for making really long posts count for more is allowing someone who's posting a huge post (like those more and more common page-long posts) to post their bit in halves or even thirds, giving them more bang for their buck.

But on the subject of classes (which I also 'skipped'), I think that it relates very strongly to the skill tree thing. If we had only a couple classes, like Jack and MG mentioned, the skill tree idea (with the classes shooting off in all different directions) could work rather nicely, I think. Here's for my potential possibility that is based very much on the City of Heroes MMORPG system that I've had a look at (anyone heard of it before?):

1) Choose a base class for your character (maybe melee fighter, ranged fighter, mage, and traveler).
2) Depending on your class chosen, you get to choose one primary and one secondary skill set from a group of skill sets that revolve around your class chosen (so for melee fighters, skill sets could be weapon-skill boosts [like "Sword Skill" or "Staff Skill"], defensive auras and armors, and specialized melee-type magical fighting. Something similiar for ranged fighters, and mages might have access to elemental, buff/debuff, healing, etc skills, where travelers would have things that would allow them to build a roguey/ranger/scribe type [lockpicking, back-stabbing, knife skill, advanced survey, wildlife taming, language mastery, enemy diagnosis]...)
3) Upon gaining level 1, the character would receive one skill from the primary set and one skill from the secondary set.

Tada. Now for the example:
1) Korind = mage
2) Primary = healing; secondary = mage's self defense (? haha)
3) Skill chosen from primary set = single person heal;
Skill chosen from secondary set = fists

At (maybe) every other level, the character would be able to pick another skill from one of the sets (levels 2,4,6 add a primary skill, 3,5,7 add a secondary?). At level 6, Korind might have 4 primary and 3 secondary skills (Prim: single person heal, status heal, defense buff, enemy health drain; Sec: fists, swordplay, dual swordplay).

One feature from the aforementioned City of Heroes that I found interesting was their addition of "specializations." Basically, one can "specialize" each skill in different ways when they get to certain levels, often with a cost of some sort. A healer could enhance the range, healing ability, or required SPL of a single-person heal by "slotting" their skills appropriately (maybe I'm getting a little too out there?). This would allow two healer-type builds to have rather different skills... Maybe this is where the apprentice/master idea could come in; 'studying' under a master would allow you to specialize/enhance your skills when appropriate?

Here's a quick link to what I'm sort of referring to:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/features/powers.html

Their game manual (click on Documentation > Game Manual to the left of the window) includes (as you might expect) a huge amount of information on how their skill slots and specializations work (warning, is a hefty file).

I guess all in all this is pretty much the same as some of the other ideas, just level based and with skill pools. I do think that making up a sub-class name would be cool though :D.

Oh, and Red, I think the spell-mixing idea would be cool, but I think the reason why MG (or anyone) would be more or less against it would be because of it's rare opportunity of usage... but against a boss that a ranger just figured out to be very sensitive to fire, two elemental mage-types throwing together a SPL efficient and yet very damaging fireball just might be the ticket to the survival of the whole group. Not your everyday spell, but a good one to keep in your wallet.

I would love to do it, but there's others who are better qualified to be a mod than me...

Come ON, Shiva! ^___^ He did say that we'll need around 5 people, haha. But same for me, if you need an extra mod, I'd be glad to help out. All right, time to click "Post..." Sorry about the length *grin*.

[Jack]

I was actually thinking about character development along different lines, so please tell me if it is a good idea.

You start off as one of four classes:

Scholar, Traveler, Vagabond, and Grunt.

Scholars through their early skill progression can choose to take up healing, elemental, or other magics. Each of these studies can lead to becoming a Cleric, Mage, etc.

Travelers take up music, or literature, allowing them to become bards or scribes.

Vagabonds take up crime, hunting, or naturalism, allowing them to become Rogues, Rangers, or Barbarians.

Grunts choose to follow order or chaos, allowing them to become Soldiers or Mercenaries.

What do you think of that? Obviously by "take up" I mean you dedicate you skill points towards a specific direction, and then accept a quest at a certain point, where you will officially become "X" class.

Lastly: should I remove the alignment feature? Maybe change it to "order, neutral, or chaos"?

[Darth Wyndisis]

Sounds great.  It's simple and realistic.  About removing the alignment feature:  I might like it.  Yeah, it would be cool as it would allow us to make our characters more ambigous.

[Master Goron]

My main question(before I make any decisions about it) would be:

Scholars through their early skill progression can choose to take up healing, elemental, or other magics.

Does this mean they have to choose these if they are a scholar?

Basically I'm wondering how much freedom this system allows to develop a character beyind the normal limits of their initial class.

Here was what I was thinking should happen. Your class choice effects ONLY the stat progression of your character. After that you are basically free to take any skills you so choose. Of course, each class has it's own special abilities, but there are many that apply to all. That way, I could choose a Scholar(for high SPL gain), but turn them into a Paladin-like warrior. His high SPL gain would be useful, while I could still use my skill points to gain strength, to have a very balanced warrior.

Mainly, I would like enough freedom to make a decent fighter or mage out of any class. My only concern with your class system is this:

Say I choose a Vagabond, if I am restricted to Rogues, Rangers, or Barbarians, why not just make the choice at the start like in HA.

I see what you're trying to do, and there's nothing really wrong with that system. It might actually work pretty well. But like I said, if it restrict to the classes, I don't know how it'll be very different. Although I do like the "quest to become a class" idea. Very good thinking.

About removing/changing the alignment: I guess we could try it. Also, I wouldn't mind it being the order one, kinda removes the perfect-type feeling of being good. It didn't really play a role in HA, but if we wanted to factor it into how the world reacted to us, I think we should keep it.

I'm finally done, good thing I asked my question before making up my mind... ???  ;D  

[Jack]

I don't think I'd be comfortable with allowing massively hybrid classes that lack a central theme of what they are. Rather, I will design it so every class has access to basic forms of talents other classes would get. Like, a Soldier/Merc could take up minor spellcasting of some kind.

[Master Goron]

Just thought of a new question. With these new skills, would spells be gained through skills, or the spell system of HA? Or even better would be a combination of both.

Also, if we're doing classes like that, I think we'd better not utilize the Vagabond, Grunt, Traveler, Scholar idea. I don't think it'll do anything for the game by having it since we'll soon revert back to the normal classes anyway.

I will design it so every class has access to basic forms of talents other classes would get.

Ok, fine by me. If that's how you're gonna do it, I'm 100% behind you.  ;D

Also, I was wondering how arrows were going to be handled. Because in HA, it seemed as if they were a waste of money after the first pack. I think we should lower a group of arrows to ten, and have them keep track and buy more arrows when they are running low. Likewise with bombs(if we add them as another weapon choice), but I think bombs should come in 5's.

Another thing, I'm assuming only basic weapons(like DEKU from HA) will be available at the start, or will everything up to Gilded be buy-able...

[Red_Fury]

I  was wondering would the skill sets just be for class. I'm thinking that the different races could get their own unique set of skills. So a Goron may have choices of Goron Punch - a powerful jab or Stone Defense - increase defense with the power of stone.

Although this may lead to making the game more complicated than it needs to be.

[weienw]

Hmm... actually, I think that Jack's "Scholar, Traveler, Vagabond, and Grunt" idea has at least one great advantage, which is a sort of flexibility. Initially, someone might choose Vagabond, and have a rouge-type in mind. Before they reached the quest where they would choose their class for sure, the Vagabond would put points in things like stealth and backstabs, only to decide they they wanted a ranger in the end. This could allow for an interesting mix between ranger and rogue, with previous rogue-skills mixed in with ranger characteristics.

I guess it depends mostly on the skill pools/trees/sets... like how they are arranged according to class.

[Jack Half a Prayer]

So much to address...

Classes: I am against class/level based systems. It puts characters in a box. If I want to do a Crouching Tiger style character where does that fit? What about a Monk? Is that a scholar or a vagabond? Is he a unarmed fighter or a scribe? How about a Psyonic?
But!
If you Decide that you want classes, than me must look at the archetypical class source, D&D.
As a game designer I read a lot of stuff on this kind of thing. I remember an interview with a RPG designer who was working on an "alternate source book" for D&D and he said that classes come from three basic concepts, you have the Fighter Guy, The Magic Guy, and the Skillful Guy. The knight the wizard and the thief. All classes are generally a standard version of these, a combination of two of them, or an alternate vision of one. see below:
Fighter: Fighter guy
Barbarian: Alt. Fighter
Cleric: Magic/fighter
Monk: Skillful/fighter
Wizard: Magic guy
Sorcerer: Alt. Magic
Bard: Skillful/Magic
Rouge: Skillful guy
Ranger: Alt Skillful.
Now of course there are more alternates (Druid) And Ranger is closer to a fighter than a rouge but you see my point.
Now your basic four classes are pretty good, but I would combine the Traveler and Scholar classes. Both are learning based, one wanders, one stays stationary. Put all their skills in one big pile and combine or weed out those that overlap. I am always much more in favor of a few skills that are really unique rather than hundreds that cover every possible variant of every concept.
Instead of classes grouping the skills into three major trees:

Scholar, Troubadour, and Fighter.

Then allowing the characters to take skills from them as they see fit.(at a greater cost, ala Cross-class-skills from D20) would allow people to make much more unique characters. Is it possible to make a Heavy Metal Bard (lots of armor and power)? how about a magic thief? Could you create an Archer that could shoot magic arrows?

World/Story:
I am in favor of just placing it in Hyrule with no time placement. The Zelda games don't exactly flow with a single story. My personal idea is that there are hundreds of years between most of them (save LOZ, and AOL, and LA) Placing it in a "timeless" setting aloes the players and writers much more flexibility in what they draw from. For instance, Icabod's master; I mentioned once, just in passing, he was taught by some guy named Vaati. We were getting damn close to this kind of thing anyway. Lizafoes and Poes in AOL? ok... this would also allow for a general freedom of how the map was constructed.
Races: So many! Oh cool! Damn Cool! The only one I'm not sure about are the Sheika. Do we know enough about them to make them worth while? Are Races going to have abilities? How will these interact with the skills? Can Deku shoot nuts? is this ability powerful enough to negate a bow and arow? Could "class" Skills be combined with race skills? Could the Scholar's "infuse with element" ability be "cast" on a Deku's nuts (erm...) in the same way as on the fighters Kusarigama?

In the end I agree with Red. I don't want to see the game turned into a huge stack of rules. I loved the old HA's system for its simplicity. It might have been level and class based. It might have been created for mob grinding and not for stealth action or social intrigue. But it also didn't take for freaking ever to learn or play.  Maybe many of the conflicts I've set up can be simply fixed by role play and dedicated MODs. So a new player wants to be able to have a strange weapon or ability. talk to the MOD, have them help you balance and design your character. So you wanna play a spiky blonde-haired woman who shoots energy balls the size of my ego? Well that's a little too much. But we can make a system by which your character can charge up energy and use it for attacks and such...

Ps: I'm willing to MOD if your willing to have me. And I would like to controdict Shiva. The man has Mod Writen all over him. I can see it from here! in WYOMING!

[Jack Half a Prayer]

Heres a map of old hyrule we could use. The creator (melora of Melorasworld.com) has their web site down for the moment but this might work if they will let us use it.
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/fanq/m/e/melora/
melora_oldhyrule.jpg.html

[Master Goron]

[Jack Half a Prayer]The only one I'm not sure about are the Sheika.

I guess that leaves more freedom and room for imagination.

I guess Jack(half) and I are in agreement here. I guess the reason I'm trying to find a more open-ended route, is because I don't want the classes to turn out the way they were. If we decide to use Jack's 4 class choosing system, in my opinion, all the skills are going to have to be something extraordinary to separate the members of that class. That's why I was thinking we should have slightly more freedom after choosing a class.

Okay, what if there was some sort of limit/penalty to prevent deviating too far from a class' origins?

Say 3 skill points(relative) per 2 levels gained.

That way you weren't totally free to do as you choose with your character, but were allowed enough freedom so they weren't carbon-copies of every other member of that class.

I would be in favor of keeping levels, more or less for statistical reasons. I believe we should keep the ATK, DEF, SPD, SPL, HP, DMG of HA. I thought it was a nice simple system, though it wasn't perfect. REF'ers definately needed more defense, and despite Shiva's well balanced-ness, I noticed a lot of characters weren't.

I am also trying to find a way to tie role-playing, level gain, and the skills into a nice simple package.

And I would like to controdict Shiva. The man has Mod Writen all over him. I can see it from here! in WYOMING!

and

Come ON, Shiva! ^___^ He did say that we'll need around 5 people, haha.

Haha... nice. That's a long ways. If you guys insist, but... anyway, maybe my guidelines for a mod are different or something. I tend to look at the quality of overall contribution, and in HA, I didn't really think I did that too well. In HA 2, it will be different though... *gives a HA happy evil-smiley type look*

Hey, that's a great map! I say we use that one, and I doubt that he/she will have any reason to not let us.

[Jack Half a Prayer]

I'd prefer it instead of level, that we were allowed to choose a new ability from our chosen tree, or for the cost of 2 "levels" an ability not from your tree. Maybe for the cost of 3 "levels" you could up a stat by one point.

Perhaps we should have the Mod's control players stats and skills?

[Jack]

My concerns with the class system are this:

1. I don't want it to be so complicated we would drive away potential players.
2. I don't want it to include classes that would not exist in Hyrule (eg. Psyionics.).
3. I don't want to set classes up to the point where people have no defined class and are kind of aimless blobs of random stats.

I concede that it could make much more sense that we have three base classes: Scholar, Vagabond, Grunt. Then, through the application of skills you deviate from that base class to a more defined box. Also, it is possible to pick pieces from other classes (like a Bard that uses Heavy armor) but in doing so they would use up a lot of skill points that could have gone to making them more effective at "Barding."

And, there will be a level system, but it will not have much weight as in HA. Levels will not determine your stats, but for every level gained you will gain a skill point. Because you can gain skill points more from events and quests, your level does not necessarily equal your potential.

As for the map, I know Melora, and I have written consent from her to use her maps (that and the AoL one), so we are golden in that regard.  :)

Races will have unique abilities like before, but I want to give them all different ones. Also, certain races will have access to certain skills, allowing them to be better choices for certain classes. Hopefully this will cut down on the number of Hylians in the game. ;)

There's more to say, but its late, and my thought train has left the station. I'll type more in the morning.